Sounds very interesting. Look for specific ets or whp?
Printable View
Sounds very interesting. Look for specific ets or whp?
For all you newbies on this board... this is an engine project that I have been working on now for FIVE years. The first year was spent developing the initial design and rotating assembly geometry. The longblock was completed and assembled in the following year. The next year and a half were spent waiting for Oscar and Moss to create a custom intake manifold for me to adapt the Gen4 M62 (which is found on the new RSX-S kit) using a counter-rotating head assembly. This never materialized... Oscar retired and the project stalled. During this time, my shop was hit by a massive FLOOD and the engine was destroyed... the sleeving had to be re-done, the rings, pistons, bearings, oil pump, water pump, seals and gaskets had to be replaced... and everything had to be meticulously cleaned. I made a change in the piston CR as well as the design... to modernize the project to capitalize on more recent findings within the JRSC community. I am now using a JE FSR piston design with an approximate CR of 11:1.
As of today... I am SOOOOO CLOSE to firing the car. The engine resides inside the engine bay of the '93 Si which you see at left in my Avitar... mated to a brand new GSR transmission augmented by a Quaife LSD and a LS 5th gear set... coupled to the crankshaft via a Tilton dual-disc 7.25" cerametallic clutch with their new hydraulic release bearing. To cope with the additional power, I added DropZone D1 fully adjustable coilovers, braided stainless steel brake lines, AEM pads front and rear and a traction control system.
I have only a few tiny details to address before I fire this baby up for the first time... the braided steel fuel line (from stock fuel filter to rail) is still on backorder, the battery tray and battery must be installed, the cooling system filled and bled... distributor and external coil wired up, gauges wired up and the interior must be re-installed. Obviously, the flood wreaked havoc on the electronics inside the car... and I am going to get the alarm, power door locks and stereo addressed before I re-install the dash, seats and door panels.
So, STAY TUNED here you guys !!! There will most likely be an early firing of the engine... before the interior is completed... just to make sure everything is functioning. Shortly after the interior re-assembly, I will run up the necessary break-in miles and then apply the final tune.
I will keep you all posted.
This has been a long-time coming for me... and I am very excited about what is to come.
Yes, the goal is 300 wheel HP and 11-second timeslips in the quarter mile. The car will have a FULL interior, including a custom subwoofer enclosure in the spare tire well... so this is NOT going to be your typical stripped street-war wonder egg.
You mentioned everything you replaced, may I ask, was resleeving neccesary (flood damage aside) for a 300whp goal? Or did you do this as an added precaution? You didn't mention new rods in the replaced parts, did you just leave that out or did they get spared somehow?
The rods were spared... thank God. They are made of Titanium and thus are impervious to water damage. They are a custom made one-off set... they are 6mm longer than a stock GSR rod and have a smaller pin end to accomodate the piston geometry changes... as well as a special .007" laser cut oiling channel down the length of the rod beam. Replacing them would have cost nearly $4300.00... my bank account is happy that they were spared.
The sleeving was done because of the bore increase to 84mm... there just wouldn't be enough strength in the stock sleeving to hold the cylinder pressures of boost. In addition, if I ever plan on making more power (say with a BIG turbo kit), the block is already prepared for it.
Very good to hear Jim!
I can't wait to hear more...
Greg
My understanding is that my new braided steel fuel feed line is on the way... and should arrive on Thursday. This means that it will be quite possible that I will finally fire the car up before Christmas !!!
One more thing: Would anyone be willing to host-n-post a pic for me so that I can give you guys a sneak-peak at the engine bay ?!? If so, send me an E-mail that I can reply to with a pic... or two or three.
Good luck Jim!! Did you stick w/ FAST or did you go w/ hondata?
Alex,
I lost both Speed Pro Bank-to-Bank systems last year in the flood... FAST doesn't seem to care about my unique situation, and has basically said (in a very nice way) "Too bad, so sad".
The good folks at Hondata on the other hand were quick to jump right in and help... repairing the sunken s200 system that resided in the car at the time of the disaster.
So, to answer your question: I will be using HONDATA... since it was already paid for. I see no advantage in re-purchasing another FAST B2B with a wideband and datalogging system... I cannot imagine any significant HP gain that would warrant the nearly $2000.00 cost.
By the way... it is good to hear from you. I hope that you are doing well.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Jim,Quote:
Originally posted by JRCivic:
One more thing: Would anyone be willing to host-n-post a pic for me so that I can give you guys a sneak-peak at the engine bay ?!? If so, send me an E-mail that I can reply to with a pic... or two or three.
Let me know about the picture. I can get it posted up on our site here and let you link to it all day. send it to me at [email protected]. Give me some detail about it and I'll be happy to post it up.
coolness man!!
you can also email me the pic at [email protected]
if you still need a place to host it.
Can't wait to see what this is all about!
Very cool. As you can see, I am an old member who just doesn't post anymore, however I do remember your project from back in the day. Congrats to you!
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 10, 2005 10:45 PM: Message edited by: TRM04 ]</font>
Its past christmas......So whats the word????? [img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img]
Sorry boys for the delay...
I have been working frantically to create some extra $$$ over the last few weeks.
Unfortunately, I have crashed a customers S2000 during my final check-out drive before it was scheduled to be picked up... and the repair bill is just a few dollars short of my $5000.00 Insurance deductible. OUCH !!!
This has meant that I have covered up the Blackbird until I can get past this hurdle... I did receive the fuel line and it has been installed. I began cleaning up the dash for it's re-install, and just received the blend servo for the HVAC central box, so hopefully, the car will be ready to crank in the next couple of weeks. There is a SLIM possibility that I will be able to work on her tomorrow and Thursday... I am simply not sure if that is ample time to address all that is left to do.
I will try and snap a pic tomorrow of the engine bay as an appetizer... just a morsel to keep you all paying close attention !!!
heheheheh
ouch.. bummer man.
well shit happens I guess,
when you're dealing with lots of fast cars it's just a matter of time till something happens.
Snap up that pic, I wanna c it!
Bummer on the S2000 crash. Hope you're ok.
Since you're now in the S2000 business, you might check my GSR For Sale thread again.
Let's see what you can REALLY do with an S2000 engine. You might recoup some of that $5K deductable and have a little integration fun at the same time. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Brian,
I read your thread... many times in fact. At this point, I am truly speechless about the Alpha project !!!
heheheh
I E-mailed Jay around 6pm on 1/12 with three pics of the engine bay... he has yet to post them.
heres the pics,
you coulda posted them urself actuallY!
as long as they have a url u can post em!
[img]http://photos.msn.com/ImageServer/Image.aspx?Image=mqkSFy3d5JDjuzFDiKEqIcAY95r0if8em apvdxEEj0akRlcd5mP4uTH88Gzv2*RRUwjYLTT8ze7s2is7VFI m37kWdse318FO5c6Y*Mn!7tlJsJHF13H!Wxi7IkU1841X[/img]
[img]http://photos.msn.com/ImageServer/Image.aspx?Image=mqkSFy3d5JDjuzFDiKEqIcAY95r0if8ee 0rLeSHPsZkQhoLogkfd02Vgx9rxtMMQwRIH*ZCU41DBBRshyLd EdQoyTpTlgallebrga!s82UGI2AcROiDuWn2fCSYgpUlR[/img]
http://photos.msn.com/ImageServer/Im...uA2tsP492qfmOm
motor looks great,
looks really interesting, is there something different about that vtec solenoid or am I trippin?
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 13, 2005 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Tad3d ]</font>
Yes, it has a STR Osaka polished cover over the stock one !!!
now thats secksy. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
what about the intake mani?
it looks different to me
The Intake Manifold is bone stock... what may be catching your eye is the polished Holley 68mm throttle body.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">sorry Jim, I was going to post them today but they beat me to it. Heehe! At least you got them up. thanks for sending the pictures though. They are on our local website now as well.Quote:
Originally posted by JRCivic:
I E-mailed Jay around 6pm on 1/12 with three pics of the engine bay... he has yet to post them.
No worries Jay... I know you are a very busy man.
What is the addy for your local website ???
Hi Jim,
Great project, hope it comes together soon!
If you're aiming at 300WHP with a JRSC on a 2litre GSR motor you'd need about 10-11psi, right? What pulley combination are you going to use to achieve that boost level?
Also, you write in your original post about "recent findings in the JRSC community" that pointed you in the direction of a rather high CR. Are you willing to unveil the reasons behind this, and how you intend to control detonation?
I'm building my own big block at this time, and I need to decide on both issues. I always value your suggestions!
Best regards,
Mark.
Since there is no way to control blower efficiency at stratospheric speeds (above 15K rpm in a 3G M62), the important details will fall within two other variables.
First, displacement. It certainly appears that larger displacement engines are more responsive to positive pressurization from the Eaton blower at ANY boost pressure. Case in point: BoostedEX's stock JDM B16A @ 10psi made 207 wheel HP. I built him a 10.5:1 compression ratioed CRV shortblock and stuck it under his stock B16A head and blower. NO PULLEY CHANGES WERE MADE. The new combination made 252 wheel HP @ 7.5 psi... and 264 wheel HP @ 9.5 psi !!!
Second, higher compression. Although this is a slippery slope with regards to conventional fuel and timing... it can be overcome. I intend to run the car with 100 octane unleaded all of the time, so I believe I can attain the HP numbers I have hoped to reach. I raised the CR to nearly 11:1... the pistons are actually 11:1 CR, however, I used a slightly thicker head gasket to accomodate the few thousandths removed from the block deck surface and the mating surface of the head. Since I am unsure of the amount of material removed from either part, I merely added ten thousandths... which is probably really close to the thickness of the lost material combined. More compression means more power... as long as you can run similiar timing compared to a flat-top type piston like the stock GSR piece. This also means that one can run slightly lower blower speeds to reach the same HP goal... and keeping the boost at 10-11 psi should be at or near the limits of the M62's efficiency range (just under 15K rpm at redline).
Since the M62 under optimum conditions can flow 635 cfm or air... this is enough air to create about 400 flywheel HP. Factor in drivetrain loss, this would net you about 335 WHEEL HP. If I have planned well, I should be able to reach 90% efficiency with my engine design... which should ultimately net about 300 WHEEL HP.
We shall see very soon.
so after 11 psi, aside from the fact that it's probably bad for the blower..
does it continue to make more and more power?
I know each psi won't have as much affect but wouldn't upping the boost still be benificial?
I also know it would be puking in lots of heat,
but say you used the LHT ic, or water injection to counteract that?
personally I think you can make 300hp,
people make around 250 on stock gsr's.. so yours should do much better.
. . . Makes me wanna get a CRV block. [img]wink.gif[/img]
Hey Jim. . . hope all is well. Just another old-timer reading up on new posts. Can't wait to hear the news about your ride. It's definately been a long time coming.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thats remarkable! And that comparison was based on peak HP alone. I bet the difference between the areas under the respective torque curves is even bigger, is that correct?Quote:
Originally posted by JRCivic:
First, displacement. It certainly appears that larger displacement engines are more responsive to positive pressurization from the Eaton blower at ANY boost pressure. Case in point: BoostedEX's stock JDM B16A @ 10psi made 207 wheel HP. I built him a 10.5:1 compression ratioed CRV shortblock and stuck it under his stock B16A head and blower. NO PULLEY CHANGES WERE MADE. The new combination made 252 wheel HP @ 7.5 psi... and 264 wheel HP @ 9.5 psi !!!
If you look at Eatons performance charts the effect of boost level on flow is much smaller then what your measurements show, the 10psi and 5 psi lines are already pretty close so the flow difference between 10psi and 7.5psi must be small (only a couple of %):
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/imag...ts/M62flow.gif
I think the power difference is mainly timing related. If you look at the blower exit temps there is a large difference between 10psi and 7.5psi:
http://www.automotive.eaton.com/imag.../M62deltaT.gif
I think the lower intake temps allowed much more timing on the 2.0 litre block, this could easily cause a large power increases!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">According to the Eaton performance charts, the M62 flows only 460 CFM @ 14k revs! (see chart above). Or is there a newer version that flows more? I cannot find it on Eatons website.Quote:
Since the M62 under optimum conditions can flow 635 cfm or air... this is enough air to create about 400 flywheel HP.
What pulley arrangement do you intend to use to arrive at the 1.75 drive ratio? I guess you'd need a stepper pulley, a CRV crank pulley and perhaps even a smaller SC pulley. Belt slippage will be an issue with the amount of torque you'll be transferring to the M62, so smaller blower pulleys are a bad idea IMO. Also, the increased vibration from the larger displacement engine could do with a better then stock harmonic balancer which is available only in stock size- not CRV size AFAIK.
Both problems can be solved by designing a stepper pulley with a bigger step then the "usual" stepper pulleys. I realize the NRE cost would be significant, but on the other hand everyone is doing 2.x litre builds nowadays so there should be a market for it. I'll gladly take one of your hands!
Mark.
Forget the word "psi"... it simply doesn't matter as a reference. There are sooooo many variables that affect pressure that making comparisons between two engines is almost impossible. A fair comparison is blower speed... and ultimately, CFM. There is a point in any blower where the lobes are moving so fast that they can no longer ingest air on the intake side to pump through the blower and ultimately into the engine. This point effectively destroys volumetric efficiency and generates super-heated intake air. This "point" is a blower speed... lets use 15000 rpm as an example. This means that if I wanted to keep my maximum blower speed at 14900 rpm, and I have an engine redline of 8500 rpm, I would try and create an overdrive ratio of 1.75... which would actually create a blower redline of 14875 rpm. Whatever the "psi" is at this blower speed, with my displacement, my exhaust, my intake, etc. is... what it is. Incidentally, I hope that it is only 11 psi so that I do not have to change MAP sensors... the GM 3-BAR is really ugly !!!
At lower boost levels, both the LHT intercooler and water injection will create lower intake charge temperatures, and thus allow one to increase boost slightly without incurring detonation. Unfortunately, since high-boost applications are already reaching the performance limits of the blower itself, there is no headroom for gain. Blowers have efficiency ranges just like turbochargers do... when you keep them within those confines, you will make the most power possible.
Consider BoostedEX's example again: His bone stock JDM B16A (1595cc and 10.2:1 compression) @ 10 psi made 207 wheel HP. I installed a CRV shortblock with Crower rods and JE pistons (1973cc and 10.5:1 compression), and using the exact same pulleys as before, made 252 wheel HP @ 7.5 psi !!! So, by increasing displacement and increasing compression, we made large gains without changing the blower speed.
How is this you say...
Simple. The additional displacement offers greater breathing power within the engine... it will use more air per revolution than a B16A will. Since the blower moves a fixed amount of air based on rpm, it would make sense that less pressure would build within the intake manifold. Also, the blower is most efficient at lower blower speeds because the amount of time that the blower lobes are open to ingest air at the inlet is LONGER... which translates into greater fill per revolution. As the blower speed goes up, the fill rate goes down. When the blower lobes reach redline, the fill rate is dismally low and the air within the intake manifold begins to recirculate... which makes REALLY HOT AIR !!! Obviously, there are additional scientific forces which also affect the airflow (intake pressure pushing back toward the blower to limit incoming air is just one), but I am simply offering an example or two to illustrate the TRUTH about what we can and cannot accomplish with the Gen 3 M62 blower.
jim wat kind of headers are u gogin to chose the dc one on ur car or a better header
aint the kamiakze header the best one out
I am using the DC Sports JDM 4-1 with the 2.5" collector.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yes!!! Very good idea. Please make a new thread, I'll be the first to sign up for one of those babies!Quote:
Originally posted by JRCivic:
mgro,
I am considering the creation of a high-boost stepper pulley for race applications only... maybe we should create a new thread to test interest in this piece !!!
We will have to figure out how to properly predict boost levels first though, your results with BoostedEX still baffle me...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Napkin check: the blower displaces 1litre/rev and redlines at 14k, thats 14000litres/minute. One cubic foot is about 28.4litres. At 90% VE the flow is about 444CFM, pretty close!Quote:
CFM... that is an interesting discrepancy. Oscar gave me the figures, and I assumed them to be true... unless I have somehow misquoted them. Maybe knowing the formula to find potential HP from a given CFM would bring this into focus better. I may have gotten the CFM number incorrect, however, I am fairly certain that the flywheel HP value is accurate.
Corky Bell's books show crank-HP to be about CFM/1.5, a quick Google confirms this. 460CFM thus gives us 306 crank HP. I guess you can spin the blower a little faster, and our Honda engines are probably more efficient then the typical engine so 300 Wheel-HP should probably be possible- just!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, I agree- if its only 1.5 degrees that cannot be it. The larger bore will probably negate part of that anyway. If its not timing then it must be CFM, but the last figure in my post above shows the difference in CFM to be tiny at these pressure differences (10->7.5psi)?!?Quote:
As for your theory about timing between the 1.6L and 2.0L engines... there is only an additional .5 degrees of timing in the big motor at peak over the JRSC HIGH BOOST maps... and no more than 1.5 degrees more throughout the powerband !!! Now, I would not say that this alone would create nearly
60 wheel HP, nor did intake temperature seem to make any difference.
What about cam timing and de-shrouding of the valves in the bigger bore engine, could those be a factor increasing the Ve???
best regards,
Mark.
ps: don't forget to start that thread on the stepped-up stepper pulley! [img]tongue.gif[/img]
mgro,
I am using an Unorthodox Racing Ultra Rc crank pulley (my design) and my stepper pulley with the stock blower pulley (4.0"). I am considering the creation of a high-boost stepper pulley for race applications only... maybe we should create a new thread to test interest in this piece !!!
heheheh
CFM... that is an interesting discrepancy. Oscar gave me the figures, and I assumed them to be true... unless I have somehow misquoted them. Maybe knowing the formula to find potential HP from a given CFM would bring this into focus better. I may have gotten the CFM number incorrect, however, I am fairly certain that the flywheel HP value is accurate.
As for your theory about timing between the 1.6L and 2.0L engines... there is only an additional .5 degrees of timing in the big motor at peak over the JRSC HIGH BOOST maps... and no more than 1.5 degrees more throughout the powerband !!! Now, I would not say that this alone would create nearly
60 wheel HP, nor did intake temperature seem to make any difference.
well, I haven't posted here in probably 4 years, but it is nice to see that this engine is almost ready to go. Good luck hitting your power and e/t goals [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
how about adding a wet kit in there nos 80 shot go for low 11
I am prepared for a dry shot... 50 to 75 HP. I put RC 550's in this engine for that very purpose !!!
Excellent thread, I can't wait to see the engine fully built and running. I am about to rebuild my GSR motor and reading this makes me want to increase displacement to 2 liters. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
I was wondering, I saw a pic of your fuel line and I want one for my GSR in my Civic, where can I order one of those fuel lines?
I haven't posted in this forum in a while, I guess I have been missing out....
Congrats on your 4000th post.
Let's play "Fear Factor".
Your task is to place a 200 hp Honda power plant into a 1978 Alfa Romeo Spider.
P.S., I'm gonna keep the GSR [img]biggrin.gif[/img]