Tell me....

[sup-rbeast]

I'm sure if ya looked hard enough you could find proof for these others as well...and only a handful were founding fathers..and all were prominent in our world:
* Ethan Allen
* Aristotle
* Marlon Brando
* Henry St John, 1st Viscount Bolingbroke
* Napoleon Bonaparte
* Cicero
* Benjamin Darrow
* Paul Davies
* Democritus
* Albert Einstein
* Epicurus
* Antony Flew
* Benjamin Franklin
* Frederick the Great
* Edward Herbert, 1st Baron Herbert of Cherbury
* William Hogarth
* Victor Hugo
* David Hume
* James Hutton
* Thomas Jefferson (disputed)
* Immanuel Kant
* Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
* Abraham Lincoln
* John Locke
* James Madison
* Moses Mendelssohn
* Gouverneur Morris
* Thomas Paine
* Elihu Palmer
* Plato
* Alexander Pope
* Maximilien Robespierre
* Adam Smith
* Lysander Spooner
* Alfred Lord Tennyson
* Matthew Tindal
* John Toland
* Constantin-François de Chassebœuf, Comte de Volney
* Voltaire
* George Washington
* Alan Watts
* Keith R. Wright

[sup-rbeast]

To a deist, God manifest himself through nature...from wikipedia (which I know isn't the most reliable source in the world) but this is a pretty concise definition: "Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things. Instead, deists hold that religious beliefs must be founded on human reason and observed features of the natural world, and that these sources reveal the existence of one God or supreme being."
Just because G. Washington spoke of God...that doesn't mean Jehovah, Yahweh, or whoever you are referring to when you say the word "God"...he was a deist...and deists believe in "God" but not necessiarily a "Christian" God anymore than the name of God from some other religion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoeburnCane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but what if we really had Godly men in the government that was obedient to God and also had accountability on the way that they govern.. sort of like an Eldership.. where no one man decides anything by themselves.. but they come together and seek God to find answers?</div></div>

You're mixing up two things that are dangerous to mix--men (imperfect human beings) making decisions based on what they are inspired to make by God (a perfect deity). Due to free will combined with our own imperfect hearts and minds, no matter how Godly or how many of these great men we get together, I don't feel they'll ever get what God truly wills to be right.

Also--who are we to say that this group of men are "Godly men"? Are they Godly according to Christianity? Judaism? Islam? Bhuddism? You must remember--the good ole' USA's a melting pot of different religions, and though to a Christian like yourself and I it may be ideal to have a Congress full of God's chosen own legislating over our country, it's not that way for any other religion.

You're zoned in way too much on the religion part of this and not the government part. Thinking of the ideal is nice, but how you govern is dictated by what you're governing. If the US were 100% Christian, you'd have nothing but amens on this thread. The simple fact is that it's not--it's a lot more diverse and complicated of a subject.

And I think you went over the line with this comment to YB:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are you? Are you a Christian? respectfully that is what is wrong with us.. we are afraid to stand up because we will be labeled as intolerant or something.</div></div>

I took that as you questioning his belief as a Christian, which you shouldn't be doing, not on here. Judge lest ye be judged. I feel he took what you said the same way as evidenced by his post that you quoted now being gone, and apparently deleted. You really disrespected his opinion on this subject, and at the same time questioned his faith. That ain't right man... </div></div>


First off I never questioned his faith.. I was just asking him a question. The reason I done that is he asked what religion and gave examples so I ask Are you Christian in reference to since he is a Chrsitian then he should seek that a Christian government be in place.. that is all. See how things get messed up... did he tell you he got offended or is that just the way that you read it? And the comment is that is what is wrong with us was addressing every Christian in the world including myself that we need to stand up in a Godly manner and allow God to intervein through us. Gosh man why are you reading in to things... I guess I need to explain myself better next time. I told you I am trying not to challenge anyone anymore. Just give it time.

[R0cketer]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here are my thoughts on it: I feel like without God being in the decisions of the government we will surely fall... it is only a matter of time. </div></div>

What nation or government doesn't fall that is Christian? Now then what nations who are completely opposite Christian stand?

If any nation that doesn't follow Christ falls, then why have their been all sorts of other countries that have stood the test of time?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R0cketer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Here are my thoughts on it: I feel like without God being in the decisions of the government we will surely fall... it is only a matter of time. </div></div>

What nation or government doesn't fall that is Christian? Now then what nations who are completely opposite Christian stand?

If any nation that doesn't follow Christ falls, then why have their been all sorts of other countries that have stood the test of time?

What other country is the powerhouse?Unless God be the one that leads we will fall. What is going on in other countries though... yes they are still there but is the presence of God there. Remember God only goes where he is welcome. Remember the scripture that say if my peole that are called by my name would humble themselves under the might hand of God he would come and heal our land?



</div></div>

[CoeburnCane]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off I never questioned his faith.. I was just asking him a question. The reason I done that is he asked what religion and gave examples so I ask Are you Christian in reference to since he is a Chrsitian then he should seek that a Christian government be in place.. that is all. See how things get messed up... did he tell you he got offended or is that just the way that you read it?</div></div>

Judging from the fact that YB's been on here for several more years than both you and I have, and this is the 2nd time in the past 2 weeks that he's asked for posts to be deleted or deleted his own after speaking with you when I've never seen him do that when interacting with anyone else over all the years he's posted--I'd say I'm reading the situation about right.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">since he is a Chrsitian then he should seek that a Christian government be in place..</div></div>

I know I'm requoting this piece but I want to speak directly to this statement: I don't seek that a Christian government be in place because I'm pretty sure given the way of the world today that it would be the powder keg to kick off a full blown Religious World War. Does me thinking that mean you're going to question whether or not I'm a Christian? Because I'm using common sense and don't want everything to be all-Christian all the time in the world in order to keep relative peace intact?

I hope & pray God's will be done. That's all we can do. Let the government do what they will, and let God do what he will do in the world--we'll see who gets their way in the end. There's no need in saying that the government needs to be inspired by God, because if God wants to use the government to do something, He will. If He wants to do something w/o using the government, the government can't stand in His way.

It's almost like this obsession & desparation to get the government to be God-driven is undermining the fact that God himself is capable of anything He wills, regardless of who's in office. Why should we try to force Christian ideals into government when God's going to have His way in the end regardless of what imperfect human beings on this earth do anyway? We're forgetting His omnipotence by trying to force His agenda on others. Let Him do His thing.

[R0cketer]

So what other country is a powerhouse? Ok the US. The country that is founded on freedom of religion.

By that logic, wouldn't Israel be the most powerful, since they are God's own people.

How is China such a superpower? For that matter, how does any Muslim country still exist, shouldn't they fall, since they are away from God?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R0cketer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what other country is a powerhouse? Ok the US. The country that is founded on freedom of religion.

By that logic, wouldn't Israel be the most powerful, since they are God's own people.

How is China such a superpower? For that matter, how does any Muslim country still exist, shouldn't they fall, since they are away from God? </div></div>

Please do not try and turn this... I only said that the United States is Soverign.. would you not agree?Israel was Gods chosen peole but when Jesus came and died we all became the same in God;s eyes.. We are Israels biggest Friend... Like I said they still exist.. God is not going to blow them off the face of the Earth.... but do you see how easy we defeated the Middle East with shear power? If God is for you no one can stand against you. Remember the Story of Gideon in the Bible?China is a very rich Country.. can not deny that..the point is we are the Superpower because we for so long have upheld the values of God... do you deny that?

[CoeburnCane]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the point is we are the Superpower because we for so long have upheld the values of God... do you deny that? </div></div>

I do. If you can look me or anyone else on here or elsewhere square in the eye with a straight face and say that we're a Godly nation--then we will call you some professional help right away.

All it takes is one look at the discrepancies between the messages of our politicians and their actions to see that we are not a Godly nation. You're welcome to think otherwise, but in my opinion you're or anyone else who says that is nuts if you ignore the truth we see everyday that's contrary to that statement.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoeburnCane</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pac-Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the point is we are the Superpower because we for so long have upheld the values of God... do you deny that? </div></div>

I do. If you can look me or anyone else on here or elsewhere square in the eye with a straight face and say that we're a Godly nation--then we will call you some professional help right away.

All it takes is one look at the discrepancies between the messages of our politicians and their actions to see that we are not a Godly nation. You're welcome to think otherwise, but in my opinion you're or anyone else who says that is nuts if you ignore the truth we see everyday that's contrary to that statement. </div></div>


I said we used to be a Godly nation.. until we said it is okay to take God out of Schools... can not mention him in Puiblic places.. some states allow same sex marriages... so forth and so on, God is being patient with us right now... I am just saying if we do not turn back how much longer will be be Soverign?