Question

[Shooter]

The point is, most countries have survived for centuries with religion intertwined in their government. Our problem with it is we have a piece of paper, signed by our founding fathers, garanteeing the separation of any "official" religion from our government.

I would imagine the seperation of state and church was originally put in there to protect churches from big government. Sadly, those words have been used to try and destroy religion in our country. I would imagine our founding fathers, who founded our country with the attitude that "In God We Trust", would never have believed how Godless our country is becoming now.

[Biggin]

I would imagine the seperation of state and church was originally put in there to protect churches from big government. Sadly, those words have been used to try and destroy religion in our country. I would imagine our founding fathers, who founded our country with the attitude that "In God We Trust", would never have believed how Godless our country is becoming now.

Go read up on the man in your sig's views on religion, and tell me Jefferson was as you describe the founding fathers.

[R13]

I would imagine the seperation of state and church was originally put in there to protect churches from big government. Sadly, those words have been used to try and destroy religion in our country. I would imagine our founding fathers, who founded our country with the attitude that "In God We Trust", would never have believed how Godless our country is becoming now.

It was put in to protect both 1) No state-ran religion 2) No religion-ran state. Again, it's ridiculous to try to claim that the religious are some minority getting picked on by the rest. Give me a break, it's the other way around and has been that way for awhile. LOL You do know that "In God We Trust" didn't start until the civil war, that even they probably would have opposed it then along with what happened in the 50's with it. They didn't have that attitude at all.


People need to realize somethings....


1) This nation isn't a Christian nation, it's a nation with a majority of Christians(for now).


2) Non-believers aren't the bullies, there's no war against Christianity/Christmas/religion. People have just smartened up and are not held down as much as before. Christians push away more than anything, that's the reason for the fall off of Christians the past few decades.


3) "Going away from God" has nothing to do with if this country is in bad shape, look at the most religious states and the fun facts about them...or that prison population...or the moral dictating done by Christians here that affects the legislation. God doesn't make you a better person, you either are one or you're not.

[Gotch]

Go read up on the man in your sig's views on religion, and tell me Jefferson was as you describe the founding fathers.

I own a copy of the "Jefferson Bible" also have read all of his letter to Doctor Rush in which he spoke in detail of his beliefs. Both sides of the issue have misinterpited his beliefs, even in his own lifetime this happened as is evidenced in these letters.

Here is one: Letter from Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush

[R13]

I've seen that letter used a million times in the debate, but every other quote is pretty much ignored. Jefferson wasn't a Christian, he was a deist, it's not really even debatable.



Cannot stand when people blather about the Founding Fathers being Christians, there's a number that were deist and the one's that were Christians...understood the need for the Separation of Church and State and IMO would never have let Christians/religious have this much control with legislation and the gov. This wasn't directed at you Gotch, just a random little rant.

[Gotch]

LOL @ it not being debatable. The man called himself a Christian and said flatly that his beliefs have been misrepresented, but it's not debatable?

That's rich.

[R13]

LOL @ it not being debatable. The man called himself a Christian and said flatly that his beliefs have been misrepresented, but it's not debatable?

That's rich.

Jefferson liked Jesus, what that letter explains is that he believes what Jesus taught and such...did he believe Jesus was divine and God's son? Honestly, can you say that? I mean that Jefferson Bible you have pretty much backs up what I'm saying. Jefferson believed in a God, but the Christian God? Jefferson was a deist, that's what isn't debatable.


In consequence of some conversation with Dr. Rush, in the year 1798-99, I had promised some day to write him a letter giving him my view of the Christian system. I have reflected often on it since, and even sketched the outlines in my own mind. I should first take a general view of the moral doctrines of the most remarkable of the antient [ancient] philosophers, of whose ethics we have sufficient information to make an estimate, . . . . I should then take a view of the deism and ethics of the Jews, and show in what a degraded state they were, and the necessity they presented of a reformation. I should proceed to a view of the life, character, and doctrines of Jesus, who sensible of incorrectness of their ideas of the Deity, and of morality, endeavored to bring them to the principles of a pure deism, and juster notions of the attributes of God, to reform their moral doctrines to the standard of reason, justice and philanthropy, and to inculcate the belief of a future state. This view would purposely omit the question of his divinity, and even his inspiration. To do him justice, it would be necessary to remark . . . that his system of morality was the most benevolent and sublime probably that has been ever taught, and consequently more perfect than those of any of the antient philosophers." (Ltr. to Joseph Priestly, Apr. 9, 1803.)






Jefferson says he was a "Materialist" (letter to Short, Apr. 13, 1820)


"Unitarian" (letter to Waterhouse, Jan. 8, 1825).

Jefferson rejected the Christian doctrine of the "Trinity" (letter to Derieux, Jul. 25, 1788), as well as the doctrine of an eternal Hell (letter to Van der Kemp, May 1, 1817).


Jefferson specifically named Joseph Priestly (English Unitarian who moved to America) and Conyers Middleton (English Deist) and said: "I rest on them ... as the basis of my own faith" (letter to Adams, Aug. 22, 1813).



To really argue that he wasn't a deist, is rich.

[Gotch]

My personal belief is that Jefferson teetered between several positions on religion throughout his life. I don't personally believe that he was a christian in the sense that most perceive the term, but I certainly believe it's debatable.

Some of the "evidence" you listed above isn't really very supportive of your argument. Just one example, I don't subscribe to the trinity yet I sure consider myself a believer in the divinity of Christ.

[R13]

My personal belief is that Jefferson teetered between several positions on religion throughout his life. I don't personally believe that he was a christian in the sense that most perceive the term, but I certainly believe it's debatable.

Some of the "evidence" you listed above isn't really very supportive of your argument. Just one example, I don't subscribe to the trinity yet I sure consider myself a believer in the divinity of Christ.

I think he was open to the idea, but all deists are. Christianity disgusted him, that Jesus was really the only good thing about it, I feel the same way as he did. The thing I love about Jefferson is the fact he didn't just come out and say anything, that it was no ones business but his...nor did he think it was his business about what others believed.


Where does it say that?

[ut1]

Just one example, I don't subscribe to the trinity yet I sure consider myself a believer in the divinity of Christ.

Who do you think Jesus was talking about when he said "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
John 14:16 (KJV)

or another translation:
16 And I will make prayer to the Father and he will give you another Helper to be with you for ever, 17 Even the Spirit of true knowledge. That Spirit the world is not able to take to its heart because it sees him not and has no knowledge of him: but you have knowledge of him, because he is ever with you and will be in you.
John 14:16-17 (BBE)

To me, that is surefire proof of the trinity, God the Father (whom Jesus was praying to), God the Son(who was praying), and God the Holy Spirit (Comforter) whose presence Jesus was requesting.