Sound recorders

[danielpuch]

Finally I bought my camera on E-bay as you suggested me, Alex... :-)
It is a Canon Auto Zoom 814

I'm waiting anxiously to receive it, it will take up to 6 days until I have it in my hands.

Now I want to ask everybody for advice about sound. Which one is the best option to deal with sound? I heard that a lot of people are using digital recorders but I'm not really sure which one is the best option.I would like also to have some way of monitoring sound, something with record levels not very expensive.

I heard that Robert Rodriguez used a recorder he bought from Radio Shack to make the sound for The Mariachi but I have no idea what kind of recorder did he use.

Any suggestions?

Daniel P.

[oldasdirt]

I have a Canon 814 AZ as well.It has a jack labelled "sound" and it's my understanding this was made for the old Bell and Howell Filmosound system.I posted this very same question on filmshooting.com and someone was kind enough to include a downloadable manual for the Canon/Filmosound system.If you want to go that route,you'll need a Bell and Howell Filmosound cassette recorder and cable and a Bell and Howell Filmosound projector.An early model,before they came out with sound on film (mag stripe single system).This is a projector/cassette recorder combo(same cassette recorder used for filming obviously).The manuals say to only use B&H cassettes, but I doubt seriously you'll find any around as this system hasn't been made since about 1971.B&H cassettes I think were just cassettes with an amount of tape that was equivalent to a 50 foot super 8 cart.

The way it works is,the camera puts out a pulse on a section of tape not used for audio.One pulse per frame.Later the pulse governs the speed of the projector and (hopefully)they stay in sync.You can find old B and H Filmosund recorders and projectors on ebay.

There are other options here.The old B&H system is very outdated and editing presents problems.How are you going to get the audio with the sync signal advantage on an NLE?Also the Canon 814 AZ is noisy,so you'll need to figure a way to dampen the noise.

Another option is to have your camera crystal synced.The Film Group (either Conneticut or Massachusettes,can't remember which)does this,but it's not cheap.If you go this route you can record your sound on a flash ,disc or DAT recorder or any crystal synced analogue recorder such as a Nagra.Some people like to use camcorders as their audio recorders as the film will be going to NLE anyway.

Most people I know shooting super 8or 16mm on a micro budget just record sound wild in the field,sync it up on the NLE,not worrying about camera noise and record the audio in the sound studio with the actors in an ADR session.

[oldasdirt]

Originally posted by danielpuch:


I heard that Robert Rodriguez used a recorder he bought from Radio Shack to make the sound for The Mariachi but I have no idea what kind of recorder did he use.

Any suggestions?

Daniel P.

<font size="2" face="verdana, sans-serif">He used a Marantz cassette recorder.Basically he had the actors record each line in the field just after the scene was shot(he was using an Arri S,a very noisy 16mm camera).He later synced it in the editing.When the film was bought by Columbia,however,the track was completely redone in a professional studio.

[Alex]

There are several kinds of synchronous and asynchrous recordings.

The worst option of the two is asynchronous, which my interpretation means the audio recorder does not record and play back at the same speeds, an example would be an audiocassette recorder because it is not internally crystal synched, so it's own speed will drift both when recording and when playing back.

Ideally, if the audio recording does not drift speedwise, it makes the job much easier to sync up film later on, the theory being that the film also runs at a relatively steady speed, just not a known steady speed. It could be 23.10 frames per second, with relatively minor speed drifts, or it could be 24.15 frames per second, with relatively minimal drift, so if the sound recording is steady, it can be synched up later.

Video cameras are potentially a good way to record audio as long as one can isolate two seperate channels, and the camera recorder should use XLR inputs.

Video Cameras & Digital Recorders should both record and playback at the same speed and that is the number one criteria I look for if I were to shoot double system sound.

Also consider using beginning clapboard AND an ending clapboard at the end of the shot and before
the film camera or sound recorder has been turned off. Tail slate should also be said out loud at the time the tail slate is used.

<font color="#FFFF00" size="1">[ August 20, 2006 12:42 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]</font>

[danielpuch]

Thank you very much, very valuable your information. I didn't know about this Bell and Howell system.

My idea was a bit wild, I'm really used to get the sound altogether in a mini dv-cam that I have (the only problem is that it's a 1 CCD camera and the sound quality is not so good) so this is going to really be the first time I'll try to do the sound in a separated recorder.
In my mind I had the idea of making sync just using the clapboard, my idea is not to make shoots longer than 5 seconds, so if the sound goes out of sync for a few moments I can make a cut and nobody will notice it. If the sound of the camera motor is too noticeable I can record again the voice of the actor separated and sync it in the NLE.
I didn't think about the idea of recording the sound on a camcorder, but the problem that I have now is that my camcorder doesn't get very good quality sound. I'm thinking about making your last idea, get the sound wild in the field just as a reference and make the audio in a sound studio, there's a person I know that has a sound studio at home, maybe he gets interested in giving a hand... it's a short story so is not going to take too much time to make the voices again and sync them in the NLE.

Thank you very much, I appreciated your help a lot.
Daniel P.

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[danielpuch]

Thank you Oldasdirt about the info on Robert Rodriguez recorder, I was just curious about it but didn't consider doing the sound in that way... :-)

And Alex, thanks for your info too.
My idea was also to use the clapboard but I didn't consider using it at the beginning and the end of the shoot. I'll do that too.
I think I'm going to look for a good digital recorder and try to get the best sound on the field, if the camera is too noisy I'll have to do it separately in another place or sound studio. I'm going to make some shoots to get used to the camera and I'll try to record the sound and try to sync it in the NLE to see what method works better.

Thanks again, and any suggestion for a good book about sound on Super 8?

Daniel P.

[Alex]

A sound on super-8 book might confuse you because some of the information may not be incorrect, for instance, fullcoat sound is no longer available, neither is sound on film.

Your Canon camera is loud so when what you may want to do is do a separate take without the camera running and then use that sound to layover your actual takes.