Dissapointed

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 15th, 2005, 05:00 PM

1_ To me and the many other musicians who really play the music, it's very important. Know the language of the style you're playing, be it jazz, latin, rock, anything. Jazz is it's own language.

2_ To people that understand it, it's obvious when a player knows it and is building on it. It's also obvious when they are not.

1_ True, that. I feel it is important; & also esp if you are going to present yourself as a [place genre/style here] muso or critic, you should understand the roots, foundations, & form of a partic style, no doubt. [That was not intended as having a "slight" connotation at all, just a factual statement of thought.]

I think that some young up-n-coming guys/gals take from their heroes, which may happen to be the contempo fuso cats, & expound, which is part of what tends to disgruntle a stylistic officianado. But,

# 2_ I don't see the real crux of this, as SOMETIMES this can tend to be a "hang up," rather than enlightenment...it sounds like splitting hairs. Why would one want to make an issue of whether or not VC is this or that? I mean, even he himself never claims to be a [insert genre here/trad-bop] player...the only real importance of pointing this out is to inform & educate the people as to stylistic identification/definitions, differences, history, & eras [in itself, a good thing].

But to go around proving that others "don't get jazz" just seems like an overall waste of time to me. Except for the informative learning curve part. When I listen to VC or Weck, I am NEVER saying to myself, "yeah, but that guy isn't playin' trad bop, man!!" WTH is that? That's obvious. Even they themselves say so. It's kind of like saying, Virgil doesn't swing in Planet X. Really? Wow, & here i was buying the disc for some copy-cat hard-core trad-bop-swing! [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img]
Not.

But YES GS, we ARE in bad need of better public music education & awareness, NO DOUBT. Pop culture obsession & "affluenza" has taken over the role of teacher & educator, which is always an early sign of the forthcoming breakdown of a civilized society throughout history! [img]eek.gif[/img] A real stretch for some i know, but think about it! OK! Didn't mean to get TOO serious there, Nostradamus...or did I? /;c)

I think it's important to study up on & know your stuff & "the difference," so that one knows "the deal," but it's also important to retain a certain humbleness about the whole thing at the same time.

The whole thing was started because of a perception of statements made by others' of THEIR perception of VC being a great "jazz [or all-around] player," & as a result, of just what jazz is or supposed to be.

I think it was summed up best by saying, guys like VC are not trad or swing-bop players, but a hybrid extension of...no big deal. I also said this sometimes tends to get into semantics & rhetoric, as was stated above again, not on the facts about a partic style of music, but how it is worded & presented, & the high personal emotions AWA opins that result FROM those facts.
This is one long-winded topic, & I ain't helping much... /;cp

Yeah, PE would have some good things to say about it. As evidenced in his playing... ;c)

As both a traditionalist AWA hybrid-contempo-fuso-ist [word?!], he plays/has played much jazz, AWA being in one of THE pioneer jazz-fuso bands of all time, which paved the way for many to follow, & still stands the test of time - Weather Report. [img]cool.gif[/img]

Whaddya get when you get a great jazz & fuso-muso-drummer playing at the North Pole?
[An] Erskimo. [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]
That's cold. No; hot, really.

That's why the ice caps are melting/water table sea level index is rising... /;cp [img]cool.gif[/img] [j/k, PE]

[ May 15, 2005 05:11 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]

**Henry II** · May 15th, 2005, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
I feel honored to have initiated this topic. This quite the debate. Or lack there of.
Friends, the language of jazz cannot be taught in a forum. Mechanic, you sound like an the worst case of alpha male syndrome when you say you want to hear us play. Us meaning the individuals who are true to the music of jazz. That's plain silly. I know jazz critics who don't play a note, yet know far more about the jazz language than anyone in this forum.

I feel as if the topic is over, due to lack of understanding and knowledge on the part of MOST contributors.

Jazz is the type of music where a foundation in needed to expand. Once you're rooted, you can expand, the universe is your limit. For example, Jack, Joey Baron, Bill Stewart, Gerry Hemingway. Vinnie Colaiuta regardless of what is being said, is not rooted. It's obvious to me, it's obvious to the legends of the music. along with the critics of the music. There are many more who aren't rooted and yet are great drummers. If it's not obvious to you, then more listening must be done your part. I hate to say that, but judging from all the reading, I can't say anything else.

By jazz, I mean being rooted in the swing tradition, not what came out of the swing tradition. That's a whole different style. Dave Weckl is not a jazz musician, Vinnie Colaiuta is not a jazz musician, Tom Brechtline is not a jazz musician, Gregg Bissonette IS rooted in jazz, Gary Novack IS rooted in jazz, Steve Smith IS rooted in jazz Peter Erskine IS rooted in jazz. These are the fusion drummers that I know to be rooted in the tradition's of swing. Steve Houghton as well. I'm sure there many more.

This is my last post on the topic. We need Erskine's point of view on the traditions and having them as a foundation to expand on. For many of you he seems to be the bridge between jazz and rock. And I agree. To me and the many other musicians who really play the music, it's very important. Know the language of the style you're playing, be it jazz, latin, rock, anything. Jazz is it's own language. To people that understand it, it's obvious when a player knows it and is building on it. It's also obvious when they are not.

Very interesting. Well, I would say that Steve Gadd IS rooted in traditional jazz/bop. But you wouldn't know it by listening to his popular recorded music. At least I wouldn't. That's part of the genius of Gadd. He's TOTALLY original. And so is Vinnie even if he's not. (I'm not saying he's not, I'm just saying I don't have any information that he is).

[img]graemlins/shhh.gif[/img]

PS: Is this the greatest thread ever, or what?

[ May 15, 2005 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 15th, 2005, 08:05 PM

LOL Henry.

That's true, VC & DW aren't by def strictly jazz musos, perhaps...but we sure can't say that they aren't musicians...& great ones at that. [img]cool.gif[/img]

While I liked much of Zappa, but I also don't adhere to his philo that jazz is a bunch of noodling-wanking-rambling notes [maybe "sounded" like it, to him & others - that's another side discussion altogether - altho some music is!], but i will say that...

This topic ain't dead...it just smells funny. [img]wink.gif[/img]

[ May 15, 2005 10:11 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]

**FlamTriplet** · May 15th, 2005, 10:04 PM

I went to Starbucks with Bunny Brunel and we talked about Vinnie and Gadd. Bunny told me Gadd's jazz feel is very stiff---rock like. And Vinnie was very much a jazz drummer, much more so than Gadd. And Vinnie is one of the few drummers who can play both convincingly.

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 16th, 2005, 12:58 AM

That's a lie.

WTH does Bunny Brunel know anyway?!
And he's not a jazz bassist either...

Doh!
[img]rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/grrr.gif[/img] [img]redface.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] j/k

[ May 15, 2005 10:13 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]

**Henry II** · May 16th, 2005, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
I went to Starbucks with Bunny Brunel and we talked about Vinnie and Gadd. Bunny told me Gadd's jazz feel is very stiff---rock like. And Vinnie was very much a jazz drummer, much more so than Gadd. And Vinnie is one of the few drummers who can play both convincingly.

Sorry, I don't know who Bunny Brunel is, but, I couldn't disagree more. Steve Gadd's jazz feel is (or was) the real thing. You don't play in the US Army Band by being a pretender. (The US military bands have some of the greatest legit. and jazz players in the world. Check out "The Airmen of Note" if you have any doubt about that). Also, My understanding is that Gadd was a bop devote before he became known as a funk master. I'm not saying that he swings like Grady Tate, but he can definitely swing.

[ May 15, 2005 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]

**JoesMechanic** · May 16th, 2005, 02:07 AM

Groovesmitty......

The problem with alot of "critics" is that they were never good enough to be what I call "players", or great "players" at that. Thats why many are "critics" and not active "players".

Funny?? You say gary Novak "IS" a Jazz player?? But you don't seem to hear any of that "purest" form in his playing on the Chick Electric Band CD?? Why?? Nor does he emit this "style" or "language" while playing with Alanis?? I wonder why?? You don't hear Bissonette's "purest" jazz language he learned at North Texas states "A" jazz band in Dave Garfields tune playing next to Vinnie?? I wonder why?? It's really simple...... it's because they chose not to and the music doesn't call for it. Just like Vince could "choose" to play the "language" if he wanted to. Your thinking that because someone isn't "rooted" in something that they can't learn it down the road is preposterous. You make it sound like some voo doo "language" that awesome talents could never learn. It's like anything...... you learn the basics and the "mechanics/theory" behind it, and then you "own" it. I personally enjoy the guys more that break the traditional molds than the ones that play the box standard "language". Because... after a while, it becomes boring to me.

Last time a guy (like yourself, flarob, and SDK) posted such diatribe, he went ahead and posted a sample of his playing. It exposed himself to me what what his pre-concieved ideals were about the music in which he was describing. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say you're a smoking Swing/Bop player. Then I would say that you've absolutely "internalized" that particular sound/groove/feel/interpretation/comping/"lauguage".... fine. And I would futher say that you definetly understand the traditional art form of "Jazz" in the "traditional" (i.e. swing) sense.

But!!?? Could you play other styles as well and swing as hard in all other area's or styles of music?? That is where I'd appreciate you more as a "musician" than if you were just "pidgeon holed" into one "style" of music.

I personally would be able to relate to you here because then I could hear your "interpretation" of what you are talking about. Not some ones elses interpretation. So.... until I get to hear you play, to me, your just some "critic" that "thinks" he knows what he's talking about amongst the many "working" players on this forum.

I know Vince would never respond to any of these posts, as would many other "players" in which you've metioned. It's a waste of time to argue who "can" play this or that when you're dealing with cats at that level. Be concerned with yourself, who ever you are, and your playing abilities. Learn to be a pro, like most pros, that usually have "humble" things to say about other "players".

The bottom line is....... I don't really care who plays the "language". It's what sounds good to my ears. Everyone has "roots" in their playing... fine. But I like what Vince, Tom & Weckl do with Swing, bop, Big Band, and other forms of Jazz even if they are not what you consider to be "Jazz musicians".

**CLWarunki** · May 16th, 2005, 02:23 AM

It's like Rodge kinda said:

VINNIE CAN DO IT ALL!

Can we not just leave it at that!? I mean the guy is the James Bond of drumming.

I agree, Vinnie plays "jazz" better than Gadd - and by better I mean more well-rounded and fluent/fluid.

P.S. I went to Krispe Kreme's with Bun E Carlos the other day and he agrees with me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ May 15, 2005 11:32 PM: Message edited by: CLWarunki ]

**FlamTriplet** · May 16th, 2005, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Henry II:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by FlamTriplet:
I went to Starbucks with Bunny Brunel and we talked about Vinnie and Gadd. Bunny told me Gadd's jazz feel is very stiff---rock like. And Vinnie was very much a jazz drummer, much more so than Gadd. And Vinnie is one of the few drummers who can play both convincingly.

Sorry, I don't know who Bunny Brunel is, but, I couldn't disagree more. Steve Gadd's jazz feel is (or was) the real thing. You don't play in the US Army Band by being a pretender. (The US military bands have some of the greatest legit. and jazz players in the world. Check out "The Airmen of Note" if you have any doubt about that). Also, My understanding is that Gadd was a bop devote before he became known as a funk master. I'm not saying that he swings like Grady Tate, but he can definitely swing.

[ May 15, 2005 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]<hr /></blockquote>Bunny is a bass player who has played in many jazz groups, Chick Corea, Tony Williams, Wayne Shorter, Al Jarreau, Mike Stern, Joe Farrell, Herbie Hancock etc... He also has his own group CAB.

It's funny that when notable jazz artists such as Gary Husband and Bunny have opinions, they are not heard by some people. Get a clue, these guys have said it, I would think their word is a bit more deep than all the J-snobs here.

I'm out. This topic is a complete joke.

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 16th, 2005, 08:17 PM

Time to be-bop on over to the 'valium cabinet'...& swing that door wide open...oh, wait, I did that long ago...oh well, time again...

[img]wink.gif[/img]

Thread: Dissapointed

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