Moeller

[Lee Collins]

Cool derek. Actually, I find when I'm playing segue songs for an hour as I do with my band, my grip is fairly loose but I can feel it getting a bit tighter as the set goes on, so I'm trying to focus on keeping it as loose as at the beginning of the set.

[Lee Collins]

I think my favourite porcaro groove, in fact toto song as well, is 'georgy porgy'.It grooves like a mofo [img]wink.gif[/img]

[Lee Collins]

Hey fuse, condescending? No way man, it didn't even cross my mind, I'm genuinely grateful for your nice words [img]smile.gif[/img]
edit: oh no, I was laughing at the bit about not hitting fuzzy creatures, lmao.

The avatar I've had on my computer as a large pic for years, with a few others from that sting gig. I just now sized it down. Looks pretty cool now I see it up! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2004 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Rudy_Ment ]</font>

[chris perra]

the thing i go for when using my attempt at the moeller technique is to get the stick to bounce off the head freely. of it's own will.

if you bounce a stick on the drum and let it bounce back in the air, it does a semi circle. the fulcrum point that it was held at is the pivot point of the circle.

to me, when using the moeller and other techniques like it well, you get the same motion, a semi circle.

this happens without holding the stick, so gripping tightly isn't needed at all. we only need the fingers to control the bounce and send it back.

for me, it feels like bouncing a basketball, within your control, but not controling the whole stroke, only the act of throwing it back down. how tight and loosely grip is adjusted depends on how much to choke the stroke bounce height.

gently squeezing the rear fingers stops the stroke from bouncing all the way up.

i also feel that when dealing with timing issues. ie: the occasional out of time note ect.

it could be from too many muscle groups being used,if you grip too tight with your fingers.
then you're wrists need to get more directly involved with a basic stoke.
larger muscles have more room for error and are harder to control.

i don't mean to just use your fingers, the wrist generates the stroke but the fingers are loose enough so that the stick slides around a bit on the downstroke and the upstroke.

this also gives maximum energy transfer, to the skin for better tone.

if gripped too tighly energy gets kicked back into the stick.... not good.


chris perra

[FuseU1]

Good post, Chris.
You've been away for a while - good to "see ya" back again!

[Lee Collins]

Hello chris,
Wow, that was a fascinating post, thank you. And I think you've answered my question about movement of the stick in the hand where you say
"fingers are loose enough so that the stick slides around a bit on the downstroke and the upstroke."

This is in fact what I've sort of been doing the last few weeks, and you say it's a possible key to timing errors. Well,yeah, I feel it's helping me that way enormously. I think my grip was too tight before, so I just need to keep it loose.
I think this thread is probably going to be the most valuable one for me that I ever make.
Thanks again.

[PocketPlayer]

"I always have insecurities about my hands cramping up. They used to a lot, and still do once in awhile. All my fingers would cramp and shut tight. You couldn't pry them apart. When I went on the road with Steely Dan, I went nuts! Toward the end of the show my hands would be twitching. I sweat heavy so I would hold on to the sticks too tight, then I would cramp. I started shaving the lacquer off my sticks, and that helped. I have small hands and they hurt after I play because I hit so hard. It's just something in my heart; it feels better to play hard and really kick it out. I'm always nervous before going on stage. I'll try to warm up and talk to myself and stuff, but that hasn't done a lot for me over the years. On the last tour, I finally found my groove. After every show, I soak my arms in a big bucket of ice water. It kills me at first, but then it feels great. It's the same thing baseball pitchers do. The swelling goes down. The next day I wouldn't be tight or my bones wouldn't ache. Also, for that last four years I've had sticks made where they just dip the tip and the shoulder taper in lacquer only. Nothing much slips out of my hands now." --Jeff Porcaro

Ah, the spice of life! The Moeller (relaxed grip) has really made playing fun again for me, and as Andy alluded to, it was weird and scary at first, like loosing what you have gained in search of a better path, not knowing if you'll ever get there. In short, change is hard after a certain age.
For real tight funk grooves (many accents and pop-ups), it's very hard for me to keep the grip the same over playing a "looser" style of music.

Regarding the Jeff quote, he did have a signature sound IMO, and a large part of that had to do with his, "playing hard and really kick it out" attitude. "Hold the Line" is pure feel and I can't play it with the same passion using the Moeller grip. With other types of pop music, I can.

[FuseU1]

Rudy quote:
"LOL! fuse, I like that last bit. Thanks for the encouragement.
//After 30 years of playing,// in many ways I still feel like I know nothing, as this grip thing proves. I would do anything now to give up work for a year and just practise drums again everyday, but alas, tis not possible any more."

Hey, man, i apologize if my post had ANY hint of condescension [img]redface.gif[/img] , as it was DEF not intended...i am right there with ya, still learning, changing, & growing myself...just trying to be proactive & all, ya know!
...& so, onward!

Peace.
-Fuse

PS - BTW, excellent avatar Rudy, [I have that big one of Vinnie, too...was it from Steve's HOD site, if mem serves correctly?]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ January 27, 2004 01:00 AM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[XNavyDrummer]

Rudy, regarding the time/Moeller issue, I can see improvement when I'm "in the Moeller zone". As Fuse mentioned, it takes alot of practice and dedication to keep the Moeller technique in shape.

Pocket thanks for the Jeff quote! Now, I would venture to say that Jeff didn't experience the same brutality on his chops playing in the studio as he did playing live. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) He certainly didn't sound that way on those great recordings of his. If this is correct, I would have to say that struggles playing live were most likely due to the struggles in hearing his playing in the monitors.

Going back to Weckl, I really believe there's no way he could maintain the Moeller flow without having a very clear mix of the drums in his ears for both his studio and live gigs.

[FuseU1]

Right, Andy.
Dave is the consumate sound tech AWA kick-asp player...he is in COMPLETE CHARGE of his personal mix if at all possible...& he mixes on his solo discs AW...he is 1 all-around [& smart [img]wink.gif[/img] ] formidable musician...