to an unknown god

[Alex]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SHATOUSHKA:
i would (dare) dream that any 'god' would be so much more than mere human imagination.
*sigh*
aye!

perhaps even on the atomic level.

but you know, your guess is as good as mine.
here's for throwing wishes into the wind.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A penny for your thoughts.



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Alex

[marturios]

Shatoushka: nice picture.

Tin Heart: I apologize for not responding sooner. I have not intentionally ignored you. Obviously you have some disagreements with the four means of revelation I mentioned. I simply cannot answer every question you posed but I will try to answer the main questions simply and honestly.

1. How do I know that God created the cosmos? By faith we know the universe was made at God's command.

2. Different people have different morals because they choose what is right and wrong for themselves. Conscience doesn't force us to do anything; it simply points out whether we have done right or wrong. Conscience can be seared and silenced so that it is made ineffective. It can be conditioned (take the Holocaust as an example. The Nazi's did what they felt was right and good. Terrorists do the same. But do personal feelings determine what is right? Moral relativism is not proof against God but proof that humanity is screwed up. When everyone does what is right in their own eyes apart from a transcendant moral referrant we have chaos and destruction. (I refer you to the 20th Century as one graphic example.)

3. You simply do not understand what you so confidently affirm about the nature of the Bible, the inspiration of Scripture and the formation of the canon. Nor do you account for the pride and prejudice of humanity (which would explain why so many abuse the Bible--and science, and politics, and religion, et al--for their own purposes).

4. By conceding this point your previous arguments collapse. Don't you realize that if Jesus is God-incarnate then he is the way, the truth and the life? Dismantle the case for Christ and you have demolished christianity.

You may reject or deny Jesus, but you cannot squash the reality of who he is. I think you know who he is but you just don't like him. At least Shatoushka set forth a reason she doesn't like Jesus; she thinks he is a pansy. (That does not correspond to the historical records, but it is her opinion.) What is your opinion of Jesus?

Crash the hostboard if you must, but please deal honestly with the truth.

"I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are very wise and beautiful; but I have never read in either of them: Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest." Augustine


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[marturios]

zelazny: you wanted me to define light and darkness; good and evil. i think you already know what i mean by the terms but i will humor you...since you dared me.

it seems you have defined light and dark as good and evil. Good enough, but let me specify my understanding of the two from a christian point of view. Jesus is the Light of the world. Whoever follows him will never walk in darkness (sin) but will have the light of life.

Jesus the God-Man is holy, pure and righteous. Darkness refers to sin, a violation of God's revealed law (a moral standard revealed through creation, conscience, canon scripture and Christ.) By following Jesus we journey away from sin and death toward life.

How do we know what the truth is? On the one hand we can cultivate a personal relationship with Jesus. He said of himself "I am the truth."

On the other hand I point you to ponder the various ways God has revealed himself to humanity. The sum of God's revelation is the truth.

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[SHATOUSHKA]

i just have one project--

define 'good' and 'evil'.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[Tin_Heart]

Ummm.. is marturios ignoring me? If so... was it something I said? Didn't say? Does he not like JCS?

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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV

[Devil's Advocate]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by marturios:
Divine Point of View
We have not even taken into account the set purpose and foreknowledge of God. That is more than most of you want to consider at this point.

None of the rulers of the age understood Jesus. If they had they would not have crucified him.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None of the rulers of the age understood Jesus. If they had they would not have crucified him.

So only the common man had a foreknowledge of God?
I thought that Jesus was killed, in part, because the rulers DID see him as God and were afraid?

Just trying to understand your points....



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[SHATOUSHKA]

holy smokes!


ok, if there ever was good evidence for parallel universes, it must be now.
TH, you kinda remind me of me when i was 16.

OY!

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[Tin_Heart]

*S* Really?

And how do you know I'm not? You, that is. Maybe I/You have an interdemensional ISP server...

Oooh, I wonder if I could turn that into a topic!

*LOL* *Is going to go look for another old thread to druge up now*

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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV

[marturios]

Devil's Advocate: You are partially correct. The Jewish religious leaders handed Jesus over for crucifixion BUT because he claimed to be God. They considered this blasphemy but they did not think he was really god.

Tin Heart: I appreciate your kind words and the effort you took to write all you did. But I want to be clear on one thing. While I openly confessed my hope that all people would become authentic christians I want you to know that I do not think any less of you as person. Ideas have consequences whether one is a christian or not. That is true for you, me and all the others posters here.

The question is can we live consistently and contentedly with the ideas we hold to be true? Some seek empirical evidences and proofs. They will not be convinced unless they see it. But you know that mere evidences cannot persuade otherwise you and others who have honestly weighed the evidence would be christian.

Others seek esoteric wisdom. But you know that mere proverbial insight cannot persuade otherwise you and others who have contemplated the teaching of Jesus would be followers.

The reality is that intent comes before content. People do not believe because they do not want to believe, not because the content is lacking. If they believe the content is insufficient they simply have not explored the content.

I believe the search leads us to the message of the cross. It is God's wisdom and power for those who are being saved, but to the rest it is foolishness and weakness. God is pleased to save those who believe the message.

Christianity rests its case on Jesus Christ and him crucified and resurrected. And so do I.

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Dare2
DV8

[This message has been edited by marturios (edited October 25, 2001).]

[Tin_Heart]

Ok, I do believe I stated "If you pushed"

Do you admit Jesus Christ is the ultimate proof for your faith? His death, life and resurrection (not in that order) prove beyond a shadow of a doubt your religion is absolute truth?

Let me introduce you to a concept called the Dali Lama.

He's in fact not a concept, but an anctual person. He is the incarnation of the Budda of Compassion. And he is very much alive and well today!

Lets start with the proof he's the Dali Lama. Since it's certain many people would have CLAIMED to be the Dali Lama, just as I'm sure many people have claimed similar holy roles in the past, they needed a test to find the true one.

When they believed they'd found the Dali Lama, he was a boy. Four or five if I remember correctly, and his parents objected to the idea one of their children could be the Buddha incarnate. Nevertheless, he was put in a room with a variety of objects. Three pairs of gold rimmed glasses, two ornate walking sticks, ect. Without being asked anything, he went through all of them and started picking out "mine".

Each item he claimed as his own belonged to the previous Dali Lama.

This was not an isolated incedent. As he was taken to the temple in Tibet, he broke away from his escort and ran after a merchant shouting "My teeth, my teeth!"

Confused at his behavior, the monks followed him. After much confusion, they found the source of the problem.

Inside a box the merchant was selling were the teeth of the previous Dali Lama.

Now it is unquestioned by many this man is the reincarnation of the Budda of compassion. Many would say this is proof that the Buddhist religion, involving Karma and reincarnation, is the truth.

How do you explain that?

You seem like a very nice person, much nicer then many evangelical Christians I've met. If you plan on doing this full time, or infact DO do this full time, you might want to check out a few books I could recommend. Some of the questions I asked you were to gauge your answers on things. And though it seems you believe simply, like the bible teaches, you might want to rethink just "simply believing" as this is going to be hard to convert other people.

If you've actually read to this point, I recommend reading "The case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. Also, "The Case For Christ" by the same author. Anything by C.S. Lewis is highly recommended by the Christians I know, and I personally recommend his fictional children's books.

Also, you'll find more combative skeptics in reality then you'll find here, so you might want to back up most of you're arguments with some pre-researched facts. "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" volumes 1&2 by Josh McDowell should help as well.

Despite what you may think, I do not hate or necessarily think your religion wrong. I have on occasion defended it to people. And while my not sharing your religion alters how you view me, it does not affect how I perceive you. I wish you more luck on your other witnessing then you had here, as I have nothing against your arguing for what you view as the truth.

After all, isn't that what we're all here for?

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Tin Heart

"Then, like a child, I closed my eyes, that I might not see the darkness..."

-JV