Something From Nothing

[Nonesuch]

I'm new in this neck of the woods, so go easy on me. This is probably an old question but I think of it every once in a while and have yet to hear a good answer or at least one that doesn't fly over my head. (Maybe I have heard a good answer but I just didn't realize it. My life story?)

If God created the universe, then who or what created god. I don't see how God could create him/her/itself as that would imply that the very beginning of God preceded the existance of God.

If matter is essentially energy and energy can be neither created, nor destroyed, only altered, then the idea of something being created or born from nothing seems kind of absurd to me. This suggests to me that there has always been something instead of nothing. If this is the case, then one of the key reasons for believing in God goes right out the window. Why believe in a creator if 'creation' has always existed in one form or another.

Also, if one believes that God created Itself, it should be just as easy to believe that 'creation' created itself. After all, if reality is so quirky that something (energy/matter) can be created from nothing, who is to say this act of creation must be a concious act? Maybe something-from-nothing is a non-concious natural occurance. Maybe there is nothing, then something, then nothing again, and so on, or something, then nothing, then something and so on and so on and so on...

Yeah, I know. It's all been asked before. Just thought it would be fun to hear what people on this board think.

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something witty.

[This message has been edited by Nonesuch (edited November 18, 2001).]

[SHATOUSHKA]

sounds like one of those 'contingent' and 'necessary' arguments...
you know, that kind of argument that says there is the system of cause and effect, therefore there must be a non-caused first cause. whatever that means.
this is the one area i just cannot comprehend.
what the hell is a non-caused first cause? and how in the hell does that have ANY evidence other than the fact that we simply cannot figure anything else out?
i dunno.

welcome to the forum.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[Nonesuch]

Thank you both for the warm welcome.

This looks like a fun place to hang around.



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something witty.

[Nonesuch]

Mr. Robin, thank you for your reply as well.

Any point along the thread of existance is both a beginning and an end. Could it all be a neverending always changing loop of cause and effect? More on this later. I have to go to work.

All posts welcome. Have a good one. A good what? You decide.

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something witty.

[SHATOUSHKA]

hmmmm....
well, i don't know about a loop, nonesuch, but maybe a spiral. it it were a loop, it would eventually come back to where it had been, and that is simply ridiculous.

I WANNA UNDERSTAND UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE!!!!
can somebody help me?

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[zelazny]

First of all, welcome to this forum, second, i agree completely with you

well,, that was easy wasn't it ?

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[zelazny]

you can't ,i mean, isn't it a paradox?

first you take a system that implies that everything needs a cause. You see the big problem in that system is that there cannot be anything within that system dat 'starts' it. So the only logical thing to do would be to discard that system or to find a workaround.
(my infamous : before the universe existed there was no universe ergo no physics ergo there was no cause and effect ergo it could 'start' after which it did have cause and effect)
Or as the theist do, they made a workaround which they call god.

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[SHATOUSHKA]

that is my point.
again, there is a problem with the sentence structure.
if everyting has a cause, how can there be an uncaused first cause?????
i am not sure it is a paradox, but it sure the hell is a contradiction.

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~~share some greased tea with me~~

General Philosophy

[Sapius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>if everyting has a cause, how can there be an uncaused first cause?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course not, there isn't one.

Shatoush, this question is for a person who believes in God. It is they who talk about the "first un-caused cause".

Yes, when going back and investigating the reasons for something happening, we find that there is always a cause, which is connected to a previous cause, and so on...

There need not be a "first" cause, because causes go back infinitely, and need not necessarily have a starting point. Just because "we" think that we are the "inventors" of something, and that it is "we" who "created" it, gives us the false belief that EVERYTHING Must have a beginning, or be "created", and hence a Creator, and all the explanations that follow, just to make some sense to our puny little logic, because we had no idea as to where those mysterious bolt of lightening were coming from.

We still have no answers to Sprits and Spooks, and until then, God shall prevail.