POST TWO

[SHATOUSHKA]

again, taken from captian janks's post in Writing Degree Zero:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>One of my favorite naturalists, as I substitute "naturalist" for "philosopher", was/is Loren Eiseley.

Eiseley says...

"'A name is a prison, God is free', once observed the Greek poet Nikos Kazantzakis. He meant, I think, that valuable though language is to man, it is by very necessity limiting, and creates for man an invisible prison. Language implies boundaries. A word spoken creates a dog, a rabbit, a man. It fixes their nature before our eyes; henceforth their shapes are, in a sense, our own creation. They are no longer part of the unnamed shifting architecture of the universe..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if 'naming' or 'language' establishes a prison...

a prison from what?

wouldn't any form of being create a prison
segregating the being from some 'other' ?



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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
Discuss This...
The Acropolis

[Captain Janks]

First off, props to you. I was beginning to believe I was rapping witha bunch of four-flushers...

I cited Eiseley's opinion of the quote b/c I thought it was cool.

I believe language is a prison because a word creates individual images to each of us based upon our experiences with a specific word.

For example, When you call or label yourself a "cheesehead", an image,( based upon my knowledge of the word), of a pushing 2 bills Wisconsin native with a silly hat freezing on the sidelines of a football game, pops into my head.

I do not believe that is the image you wished to convey, thus the confinement or prison of language...

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[zelazny]

so you mean we are bound to 'simple' images, things we already know to convey the abstract and more 'complex' ideas we have in our heads?

(on a side note, something i launched here without much succes, do you think language can actually sculpt the way you think?)

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Sure the universe is a great place, but if it wasn't here, no-one would miss it.

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm with Janks here. While I wouldn't go so far as to call language a "prison," it does exert a limiting influence on thought.

I believe it was argued in the book The Cheese and the Worms, wherein the heretical cosmology of a rustic man in medieval times (could be wrong, been awhile) is discussed, that atheism was virtually impossible. Or rather, inconcievable, on a general scale, because there was no word for it, and thus, no concept. Words to describe such a holding did not evolve into the language until later.

Take 1984 as an example, and an outstanding one at that. The goal of newspeak was to simplify language as much as possible, and thereby simplify the speaker. Instead of the countless ways be can describe something as bad, and the blessed shades of meaning between each one, newspeakers were limited to building-block modular vocabularies such as "double-plus ungood."

Language is the vehicle by which we communicate thought. And in order to effectively communicate these thoughts to another, we must have a set standard for communication. And it stands to reason that thoughts that have no means of being encapsulated in language are more difficult to concieve.

I've often become quite frustrated trying to put thoughts into words when there isn't a ready fit. Smells are a frequent culprit- I find describing them near impossible. As a result, I spend little time contemplating them. The inability to verbalise- even in my own mind- discourages me from consideration. If that's not the guidance of language, I don't know what is.

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There's a lesson in life to adopt and interpret
It applies to all people, regardless their race
Oh don't put your trust, or your faith in the person
If sometimes they seem to have more than one face...

[SHATOUSHKA]

the fact that language imprisons us all is
not an epiphany. (ok, i'm strictly speaking
to some people.)

we can all agree that language creates barriers, formalities, taboos...
some sort of difficulty is experienced in
language.

yeah???

perhaps i am (as consistantly stated, agreed
and proven) too damned cynical...

as with pogue's example in scent, it seems
the main purpose of language is to represent
an experience that 'once was' in order to
convey 'likeness' in a present situation.
lets face it, it sucks.

without going into premature detail, i'd also
add that some minute significance of language
binds us to that cavalier attitude of
'all things are one' type of romantic and
hokey shit.
(i already regret avoiding detail.)
but that is another tangent entirely.

so...
my question still remains, despite the 'facts',
wouldn't any change from this current state
STILL create a prison?

or are we just sitting around pondering 'what ifs'?



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~~share some greased tea with me~~
General Philosophy
Discuss This...
The Acropolis

[Captain Janks]

I'm kinda disappointed with this forum. It's no wonder Sweet Pea has chosen not to include you guys on their new board.

The only philosophy I've read here is by that nimrod Jungle Clone brother in smack, Pogue Mahone. I bet he's even read Burmese (sp.?) Days.

Come on. I want to save you people from yerselves. I want Sweet Pea to allow you guys to join us on the new board bandwidth. Help us out. Talk Turkey!

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[Captain Janks]

I absolutely believe one's language influences thought. I've studied Spanish, but could never imagine thinking in Spanish as the Spanish vocabulary is nominal/limiting.

Esta' Bien means:

It's ok
He's ok
She's ok
Whatever
Allright
Okay?
I agree
and a lot more English phrases.


My opinion is that it is difficult to follow conversations in one's native language, much less attempting to translate one language to another.

As far as your point about translating complex and abstract thoughts to language... I dunno.. I've never had a complex or abstract thought.

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[Hannibal]

I talk turkey....i also talk a bit of danish, and german, spanish, and a bit of french even!!!

Interestingly enough, I find German language to be very precise.

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As miserable as life may be I hold it pretty precious...

If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no light. If I lose paper and ink, I wil write in blood on forgotten walls. I will write always, I will capture nights all over the world and bring them to you.
Word And Voice
Motocross Fanatics
General Philosophy

[Captain Janks]

speaking of "romantic and hokey" stuff
www.emptydreams.net

de nada

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[Pogue Mahone]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Janks:
speaking of "romantic and hokey" stuff
www.emptydreams.net

de nada

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't take you to be such a softie, Janks. Don't worry, your secret's safe with me. I won't tell the others and ruin that "tough guy" image you've been trying so hard to construct.

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There's a lesson in life to adopt and interpret
It applies to all people, regardless their race
Oh don't put your trust, or your faith in the person
If sometimes they seem to have more than one face...