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August 1st, 2005, 12:37 AM
Piña

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunslinger:

indifference and fear does help crime. Criminals (drug dealers, thieves, prostitutes, et al) know that if people don't care or are afraid of them they will not act, therefore they go out and do what they do with impunity. As for the alternatives, these kids aren't interested in the alternatives. Do you know how many kids I have talked to about working at McDonalds or Krogers to make their money instead of them dealing drugs or stealing? They aren't interested in working for $8.00 an hour when they know they can either peddle some crack for an hour and make $300.00 or just go into a store and take what they want for free. They also aren't interested in the programs that ARE out there b/c it's not the 'cool thing to do'.

?They aren?t interested in working for $8.00 . . .?

Let?s assume that this is a true reflection of their thinking and not just childish bravado. Why would they feel this way? What kind of a world do they think they live in that would make peddling crack the best case alternative? Not what kind of a world do they actually live in but what kind of a world do they think they live in.

If you assume that these ?kids? are not that much different than any other kids, that they arenot doomed to always be the inherently evil and worthless ?non-contributors? that the neocons love to paint them as, then I would suggest that the way to get them to make better more socially and personally beneficial choices is to change their perception of what their realistic options are.

They may be making all the wrong choices but to them, correct or not, they are the only ones that they see as possible. Change those perceptions and you will change behavior.

Quote:

Empty houses DO perpetuate crime. As long as these houses stay empty the criminals know that they have a 'safe haven' as it were. YOu get rid of the 'safe havens', then where do they go to shoot up or whatever it is they do in those houses? If you take away there hiding place where can they go?

They will simply find other houses or substitutes. The economic forces that are in play that created the empty houses in the first place will still be in effect and will only create other ?safe havens? for illegal activity. The empty houses don?t, in and of themselves, ?create? crime. They?re just another symptom of a much larger problem.

Even if, and I do not concede this point, the houses did perpetuate crime the reality is that you just aren?t going to be able to get rid of them that easily. Where are you going to get the money to make it happen. Keep in mind that many expensive hurdles have to be cleared before the city can do anything about them. You first have to deal with the whole seizing of private property issue. This is not easy to do for many reasons even with the Supreme Court ruling. Then you have the more onerous financial hurdles to deal with. Inspecting the property takes money. Condemning the property takes money. Dealing with the inevitable multiple rounds of appeals and re-inspections takes money. Bulldozing the property takes money. Clearing the property and making it safe takes money. Carrying the property on the cities rolls takes money. Maintaining the empty lot that is now public city property and a magnet for lawsuits takes money. Selling the property takes money.

Ask yourself where is the money going to come from and which City Council members are going to commit professional suicide trying to make it happen?

Quote:

Like I said before, these kids aren't interested in the alternatives. They aren't interested in living a 'regular life'. They wanna be hard core gangstas. Working at Krogers bagging groceries and going to school and getting good grades don't fit that role. In order to change the behavior you have to show them that the way they are living now is unacceptable. You do that by hauling them off to jail and taking away the crack houses that shelter them from society.

I think you do these ?kids? a disservice when you assume they aren?t interested in a better life. They know that being a gansta sucks, they live it every day. Just because they say and act as if they want to live as hoods doesn?t mean it?s what they would want if they believed they had options. Trying to convince them that their perceived reality is unacceptable is fruitless because as far as they?re concerned it?s the only life they can have. Doesn?t matter that they can make other choices until they truly believe that they can. And changing someone?s entrenched view of reality is one tough row to hoe.

Hauling them off to jail just doesn?t work. Never has, never will. The entire gansta culture embraces the idea of doing jail time as just another cost of doing business. It?s overhead to those who are in the drug trade. It?s an expectation and just reinforces their perception that they have no other way to be. If you want to get them to make other choices you need to go beyond jail and educate them, effectively, that there is more to life.

Quote:

That is why City Council needs to stop hounding the police department and get out there in the community to show these kids that there is a better way. Yeah, I know, siding with the cops and making sure that buildings are either kept up to code or gotten rid of may not be 'headline grabbing', but these are a couple of the things that need to be done in order to start getting this city and some of its communities turned around.

I agree that we need to do much more to show them that there is another way. Problem is that just telling them isn?t enough. You have to get in there and make real changes that they can see actually impacting their day to day lives. They need to see the entire process where people who they identify as ?their? people make good in their own community.

Quote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[Pina]Or you could just beat your head against the wall as we?ve been doing for damn near forever.

I do that enough at work. The only thing that should be beaten are some of the parents of the kids I see at work. They are a big part of the problem also.<hr /></blockquote>You know, I often feel the same way about parents that I think are doing the wrong things and my knee jerk reaction is that I want to slap ?em and wake ?em up to their responsibilities. Some I'd just as soon shoot as not. Thing is that just like putting ?em in jail it just usually doesn?t do any good and often makes the problem worse.

Now, regardless of how trav and gae would like to characterize me and attempt to marginalize my ideas by twisting them via some sort of Limbaughesq cartoony rant, I?m not a fan of tossing money at people and problems just to toss money at them. It?s another approach that rarely works.

Truth to tell, I really don?t have a unified large scale solution. The problems are complex and entrenched and aren?t going to be solved by bulldozing a couple of buildings.

The first thing I think we need to do is stop assuming that people are inherently lazy and dishonest. Sure, there?s a lot of people out there who are but the majority of them would opt for a reasonably comfortable and safe life if they could be convinced that it was an achievable goal for them.

I mean have you ever considered what life is actually like for people in crack neighborhoods? Would you live there voluntarily? How about if you didn?t know and believe that there was another way? What would you do if you knew in your heart, absolutely believed with your entire being, that there was no way out?
August 1st, 2005, 01:22 AM
Piña

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Whizbang:
Everything you say is true. Just last winter a number of males walking alone in Northside were attacked, presumably because they were perceived as gay. I know at least others two who were assaulted outside bars (downtown and Newport).

The difference with this scenario is that the courts (and the general public) will side with the victim of the violence, not the perpetrator.

I'm sure we can find circumstances to the contrary, but by and large an unprovoked attack on someone who is gay or perceived to by gay will result in a conviction against the perpetrator. The gay person would not be blamed for someone assaulting him.

Ah, what you say is very true and applies to the current state of affairs. But how about if it was illegal to actually be gay? What if society, via it?s lawmakers, decided that gays were a clear and present danger, just as drug dealers and prostitutes are thought to be a danger to society. Would it then be proper to strip them of their rights just because they would then be defined as loathsome criminals?

The perception I was talking about wasn?t that people could be perceived as gay but that people who were gay could be perceived as a danger and that if they were so perceived then any actions against them could, and likely would, be considered society defending itself. Much in the same way that some would consider actions against drug dealers and prostitutes as justified because they are ?criminals? and therefore fair game.

Quote:

I'm rambling, but in a nutshell I'd say you're taking truth and trying to take it somewhere beyond where it needs to go.

Actually, I think we?re more talking past each other.

What I?m attempting to do is to present you with an alternative way to look at the problem, the blighted neighborhood problem, and to suggest that if we change our way of thinking about why it?s happening that we can arrive at solutions other than those that have been tried and failed. (What, you think you?re the first to think of bulldozing decrepit properties?)

I?m trying to suggest that the best way to solve this problem is to understand that even though the ?criminals? may be making what seem to us to be very bad choices that to them they represent the best possible choices in their frame of reference. If we make drugs and prostitution legal and regulated we would effectively remove the economic incentives for people to continue perpetuating those particular problems and hopefully alleviate the concurrent violence and other antisocial behavior that you are upset about.
August 1st, 2005, 01:50 AM
Piña

Quote:

Originally posted by gae:
We didn't have a name for it, but we've pretty much cleaned up our little corner. There was just something about trav going outside with his hair down, screaming "Get the F***" out of here that worked magic. The lib neighbors weren't too happy -- we've been told more than once that we need to "understand" and "make allowances". F*** that noise.

Well, hell, if that?s all you need to do to make your neighborhood a veritable paradise then what are you all bitching about? Somehow I get the feeling that your block wasn?t rocketed onto the ten best places to live list just ?cause idiot boy decided to play up his best attribute. I understand he wears ?wild eyed maniacal asshole? like it was a second skin.

Quote:

Pina, you are living in a dream world. We all know that, but I'm saying it again. Your idiotic contention that if the poor yoofs were just given a chance is tired liberal rhetoric. They HAVE a chance. The same chance that GS & jdf's kids do. The difference is that GS and jdf are making sure that their children take advantage of the opportunties. The morons who prowl this neighborhood, in their 6X tshirts with their pants belted around their thighs have been brought up to believe that someone else owes them something. And it's people like you and the poverty pimps who prepetuate that notion.

gae, go fuck yourself. If you had half the brain that the rest of the tattooed hookers on your block have you?d understand that I?m not talking about what chances the poor yoofs (I suppose that?s the new N-word substitute) actually have. I?m talking about what chance they think they have. I know your not big on subtle thinking but the two concepts are not the same.

GS and JDF?s kids know they have opportunities. It?s a testament to their upbringing that they have been shown that they can achieve whatever they want to. (GS, JDF: I?m assuming that you are teaching and showing your kids that anything is possible.) The ?morons? have not been taught the same things. Whether that?s because of their parents or their environment doesn?t really matter so much. The important thing is what they believe, what they see as their horizons and what limits they think exist on how much they can achieve. You may not like it but the only way to change it short of bringing in the gas chambers is to change their perceptions about who they are and what they can aspire to. Just like any other segment of the population most will make the choices that benefit themselves and society if they can be shown that there is a real, attainable path to a better way of life. Just telling them isn?t enough, though. It needs to be demonstrable and it needs to be taken to heart by them.

Quote:

And, Pina, let me say again that you are an idiot.

And let me say again that you're just a bitter middle aged woman who is actually contributing to the very problems she says she wants to solve. I think that sets you right down into the idiot box yourself.
August 1st, 2005, 06:00 PM
jumper69

Quote:

There was just something about trav going outside with his hair down, screaming "Get the F***" out of here that worked magic

HAHAHAHA!!!! [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
August 1st, 2005, 06:06 PM
jumper69

Quote:

Originally posted by Pina:
Change those perceptions and you will change behavior.

Admirable but hardly realistic. At least not until you get the parents actively involved. It is a vicious cycle but I believe the children copy what they see from adults. If they live in an area where the adults are dealing and killing, what other perceptions are there for the kids to have?

For perceptions to change, that means the parents have to want to change themselves before the kids can even hope to change. However, I also believe that to do that takes effort and a willingness to suffer today for a better tomorrow. I don't believe that most are willing to put in that effort despite the programs in place to assist them.

It is TOO easy to look at the drug dealer rolling in his 500sel with the spinners and then look at yourself and see that you have 4 years of hard work (school)ahead before you can even hope to acheive that level of economic prosperity.

It ain't gonna happen. Not in my lifetime. Sad? Certainly. Reality? ABSOLUTELY!
August 1st, 2005, 08:11 PM
reason

Quote:

It is TOO easy to look at the drug dealer rolling in his 500sel with the spinners and then look at yourself and see that you have 4 years of hard work (school)ahead before you can even hope to acheive that level of economic prosperity.

Yeah, well try 7 years of school (and counting...again) and still not see a 500sl in my future.
August 2nd, 2005, 11:34 AM
jumper69

Quote:

Yeah, well try 7 years of school (and counting...again) and still not see a 500sl in my future.

My point exactly. I today's "I want it now" society, hard work and effort are not words that are commonly understood by those who most need to understand them.

I also kind of agree with Pina about changing the conditions that will change the behaviour but neither he, nor I, have even one clue on how to do this.
August 2nd, 2005, 06:06 PM
reason

Quote:

GS and JDF?s kids know they have opportunities. It?s a testament to their upbringing that they have been shown that they can achieve whatever they want to. (GS, JDF: I?m assuming that you are teaching and showing your kids that anything is possible.) The ?morons? have not been taught the same things. Whether that?s because of their parents or their environment doesn?t really matter so much. The important thing is what they believe, what they see as their horizons and what limits they think exist on how much they can achieve. You may not like it but the only way to change it short of bringing in the gas chambers is to change their perceptions about who they are and what they can aspire to. Just like any other segment of the population most will make the choices that benefit themselves and society if they can be shown that there is a real, attainable path to a better way of life. Just telling them isn?t enough, though. It needs to be demonstrable and it needs to be taken to heart by them.

Ok. I think it's time for your first assignment.

The second house on the right on Lakeman just past Hanfield on the way to Blue Rock has been for sale "forever." It is occupied by a family with 9 children, presumably one parent. All subsidized.

Your assignment: Train these 9 yoofs about their choices in society and their ability to achieve greatness. Seems like getting money from City Council to raze these substandard homes would be easier. Plus I'm thinking they won't listen to you anyway.

Oh, while you're there, pick up the litter strewn from the street corner down past your assignment house. That is if I don't get to it tonight.
August 2nd, 2005, 08:20 PM
reason

Quote:

I also kind of agree with Pina about changing the conditions that will change the behaviour but neither he, nor I, have even one clue on how to do this.

Now seriously, does anyone disagree with Pina about the desire the change the root causes of the behavior?

I would argue that people react to their surroundings. If a place looks like a dump, that's the way people with treat it - like a dump. More importantly, a dump attracts trash. No one wants to live near a trash dump, creating zero interest in improvement or reinvestment.

Certainly even Pina can acknowledge that poor living environments and areas that attract unsavory elements can have a serious detrimental effect on a single mom raising nine yoofs on her own.
August 3rd, 2005, 11:12 AM
reason

DANGER! EXCITEMENT! INTRIGUE!

As it turns out, ten minutes after I and the rest of the stoopers left Monday night, the police show up, an undercover cop jumps out of his car and busts some dude right out in the middle of the block where we were stooping. After the arrest, the coppers were high fiving each other, apparently happy with their work.

I think it's great to to see action being taken, but I've expressed concern that the stoopers may become targets. By this time the neighborhood knows about the stoopers and what they are doing. I seem to be the only stooper concerned about this.

[ August 03, 2005 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Captain Whizbang ]

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