IRAQ

[Beachcomber]

I know this is an old topic, and we have all argued our positions on it ad nauseum already. But with it being a presidential election year and it hasn't been discussed in awhile I think it's fair game for further discussion. I'll recap my own position on it:

I never warmly endorsed the invasion, but I supported President Bush's decision to do so. The passage of time has uncovered flawed intelligence and indications that they did in fact NOT have WMDs. But in a post 9/11 world, could we take that chance? Perhaps Bush can be faulted for not exhausting more options first, perhaps not. But I notice those who condemn Bush for the invasion were oddly silent when Clinton bombed the hell out of them including destroying a Bayer aspirin factory. As to the progress of the war. It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder to paraphrase Napoleon's foreign minister. But what caused it to be a "blunder"? It wasn't President Bush's fault. It was the media. Yes that's right, the media. After the invasion the Iraquis seemed quite content to assume a "wait and see" posture, there was no major insurgency. People cheered when the statue of Saddam Hussein was toppled with the help of a US tank, people cheered when Uday and Quesay (saddam's sociopathic sons) were blown to bits. Hell their own cousin told the US military where they were hiding. Except Democrats in this country, they scowled at the possibility that President Bush could be responsible for something good for the world. Then the Abu Gharaib prison scandal became public. The media lashed into it and onto it like rabid animals, blasting it 24/7 in the news to the exclusion of everything else, flaming the Iraquis and other muslims to all new levels of American hatred. The insurgency was born. Don't blame President Bush for all the casualties, blame the leftist media and the leftist Democrats in this country who would rather see us fail than give credit to a Republican. My .02 cents.

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ January 16, 2008 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Beachcomber ]</font>

[Beachcomber]

And the same misguided idiots who would rather defend the rights of detainees (terrorists) at Guantanamo Bay are the US Trojan Horse. Muslim extremists laugh at these fools, would love nothing more than to cut the heads off of all of us. We cannot fight these monsters using the same due process and the letter of the law that we apply to ourselves. We are at war. My God, Hitler is probably kicking himself in Hell at having been born 50 yrs too early. He could win WWII today with the US media being his public relations firm...

[LanDroid]

The U.S. media caused the Iraq insurgency? That's just ignorant. As much as you enjoy history, you should school yourself on this part of it. Here are a couple of excellent books, there are quite a few others...

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation/dp/1400075394/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200614876&sr= 1-1"]Cobra II by General Trainor and Michael Gordon[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Fiasco-American-Military-Adventure-Iraq/dp/0143038915/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200615042&sr=1-1"]Fiasco by Thomas Ricks[/ame]

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ January 17, 2008 07:18 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

[Beachcomber]

Then tell me why there was no insurgency before that media frenzy? The media taunted the muslim world like a stick to a cage of a wild animal. When that "scandal" died down they jumped on Guantanamo Bay alleged "abuses" and even made an issue about allegations of a soldier who defiled the koran (which subsequently turned out to be false) And why? Better to fail than allow George W. Bush a victory....

[reason]

I've seen some bad spin supporting Dubya, this is by far the worst. Wow.

I'm actualy shocked that you would post this, GL.

[Beachcomber]

Cool. This board could use a little shaking up. I didn't think I had the ability after all this time to say anything shocking....

[gae]

Let's all get real and understand that because of Hil and Bill, Iraq is now another damned political war.

We've talked to a number of young folks who have come back and the ****ing rules of engagement (Thanks, Lan!) make my blood boil.

We're back to another Vietnam, and unless the people of this country get off their collective fat asses and get behind the military, we'll lose more and more of our finest.

Keep in mind that everyone in Iraq, Iran, and all the -stan's VOLUNTEERED.

How many of you did?

[LanDroid]

As I said before GL, read those books if you want answers to your question about the media. Cobra II covers the war planning and operations up through some time in 2004. Fiasco also covers that period and up through about mid-2006.

[LanDroid]

As to GAE's comments, you should blame General Petraeus (and the leaders who put him in charge) for changes in the "****ing rules of engagement", not me or any other liberals. Actually these have been positive changes, long sought by those who understand counter-insurgency is different from other types of war.

On the ground with the troops, it is clear that a major military change was in fact made in Iraq last year ? not so much the addition of 30,000 troops, but the shift to a counterinsurgency strategy for using them. That strategy made the protection of Iraq?s population a paramount goal in an effort to drive a wedge between the people and the militants and to encourage Iraqis to provide intelligence that the American military forces need to track down an elusive foe.

But counterinsurgency is inherently a long-term proposition, and that assumption has driven much of the military thinking about the future, even as it heightens the political debate at home.

?Unless you are suppressing insurgents the way the Romans did ? creating a desert and calling it peace ? it typically can take the better part of a decade or more,? said Andrew Krepinevich, a military expert at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

- Michael Gordon, Co-author of Cobra II
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/we.../20gordon.html

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><font color="#0000FF"><font size="1">[ January 20, 2008 06:34 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font></font>

<font color="#0000FF" size="1">[ January 20, 2008 07:21 PM: Message edited by: LanDroid ]</font>

[gae]

WHAT!! It's Bush's fault?!

I'm constantly and forever amazed that liberals have never read any history at all.

HOLY CRAP!! If it were up to Lan and Reason, we'd all be speaking German (except for me, because I'd be dead for 'religious' reasons) and nowadays, we'd all be force fed the Koran and the women folk would be wearing burkas. Cause, you know, we don't want to offend the damned terrorists. Oh wait... that's already happening.

American Revolution (1775?1783)
Total servicemembers 217,000
Battle deaths 4,435
Nonmortal woundings 6,188

War of 1812 (1812?1815)
Total servicemembers 286,730
Battle deaths 2,260
Nonmortal woundings 4,505

Indian Wars (approx. 1817?1898)
Total servicemembers 106,0001
Battle deaths 1,0001

Mexican War (1846?1848)
Total servicemembers 78,718
Battle deaths 1,733
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 11,550
Nonmortal woundings 4,152

Civil War (i.e., War of Northern Aggression)(1861?1865)
Total servicemembers (Union) 2,213,363
Battle deaths (Union) 140,414
Other deaths in service (nontheater) (Union) 224,097
Nonmortal woundings (Union) 281,881
Total servicemembers (Conf.) 1,050,000
Battle deaths (Conf.) 74,524
Other deaths in service (nontheater) (Conf.) 59,2972
Nonmortal woundings (Conf.) unknown

Spanish-American War (1898?1902)
Total servicemembers 306,760
Battle deaths 385
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 2,061
Nonmortal woundings 1,662

World War I (1917?1918)3
Total servicemembers 4,734,991
Battle deaths 53,402
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 63,114
Nonmortal woundings 204,002
Living veterans fewer than 251

World War II (1940?1945)3
Total servicemembers 16,112,566
Battle deaths 291,557
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 113,842
Nonmortal woundings 671,846
Living veterans 3,242,0001

Korean War (1950?1953)
Total servicemembers 5,720,000
Serving in-theater 1,789,000
Battle deaths 33,741
Other deaths in service (theater) 2,833
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 17,672
Nonmortal woundings 103,284
Living veterans 3,086,4001

Vietnam War (1964?1975)
Total servicemembers 8,744,000
Serving in-theater 3,403,000
Battle deaths 47,424
Other deaths in service (theater) 10,785
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 32,000
Nonmortal woundings 153,303
Living veterans 7,286,5001
Gulf War (1990?1991)

Total servicemembers 2,225,000
Serving in-theater 665,476
Battle deaths 147
Other deaths in service (theater) 382
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 1,565
Nonmortal woundings 467
Living veterans 1,852,0001

America's Wars Total
Military service during war 43,185,893
Battle deaths 653,708
Other deaths in service (theater) 14,560
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 525,930
Nonmortal woundings 1,447,281
Living war veterans 17,835,0004
Living veterans 23,976,000
Global War on Terror (as of Sept. 30, 2006)5
Total Servicemembers (Worldwide) 1,384,968
Deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan 165,000
Battle Deaths 2,333
Other Deaths (In Theater) 707
Non-mortal Woundings 21,649
Living Veterans 588,9236