Tribe stiffs Moorad........or did we?

[Swanny]

Alex, if C.C does not have the same type of year he had last year and Finley is worse( a very good possibility) we are in for one loooooooooooong season. srg and Alex, I can't tell by your posts if you are happy with the new Tribe lineup or not?I think it sucks to be quite honest. Merry Christmas!

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[This message has been edited by Swanny (edited December 22, 2001).]

[srg]

Alex, Our starters are still not in a league with either NY or Oaklands therefore my point is valid. Potentially we will have a solid young starting rotation not b/c of Hart but Shapiro. Mark Shapiro has been the Farm director/scouting director in charge of drafting ALL the young pitchers scattered thru the system not John Hart. John Hart is the one who wrecked this system not Mark Shapiro, Hart is the ego-maniac that fired scouting directors as often as Steinbrenner used to can managers. It was Shapiro who hired shrewd baseball people like John Mirabelli and Neil Huntington, It was Shapiro who was the architect of the Winter conditioning programs and Latin American player development programs. It was Shapiro who did not want Brian Giles traded for Rickey Rincon, Sean Casey for Burba, Karsay for Rocker. FYI it was John Hart who wanted to draft Aaron Sele or Alan Watson over Manny Ramirez, the egotistical Hart was overuled by Mickey White fortunetely. Hart responded by firing White a couple yrs later. Hart did not build the Indians by himself, he gets all the credit but were it not for Hank Peters-Dan O'Dowd, Mickey White we would not have been the team we were during his tenure. Mark Shapiro wants a team built around pitching and defense, that is what separates the two.

As for next year, no, I am not a big Lawton fan or Guitterez but they are short term solutions until there younger replacements arrive.

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[supersleuth]

I think that srg has it right, and I think the dumbass moves Hart has already made in Texas are further evidence.

We're just going to have to live with this team's growing pains the next couple of years. Only the filthy-rich big-market clubs have the $$$ to rebuild on the fly without bagging at least a season or two (and of those, only the Yankee$ seem to have the management smarts to use the money wisely). We had a long run of good seasons including two WS appearances. Would you rather have seen the Tribe flame out going for one last hurrah and then suck for a long time like the Marlins or, coming soon, the geriatric, up-to-their-keisters-in-debt Diamondbacks?



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[Alex]

Well, I don't agree at all..THERE IS NOBODY being groomed for greatness in our system.

Alex Escobar???

Our current vets had AT LEAST two more years of greatness, maybe three.

That would be plenty time to either get our farm system producing again, OR sign free-agents.

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Alex

[Swanny]

When I was posting at Cleveland Live anytime I brought up the fact that I wasn't impressed with John Hart I got ripped to shreds. I could not believe the pro-Hart posters there. All those Central Division Championships have clouded the minds of many an Indian fan. One could be impressed with Hart's first 5 years of his tenure but anyone who is actually impressed with his handling of the team in his last 5 years needs to lay off the egg nog. We should all be glad that Hart is in Texas now. We have a whole new ballgame with Shapiro in charge. The return he got for Alomar is plain and simple weak. There might be some nice ballplayers in the package but don't think for one second that we made out like thieves. The signing of Brady Anderson is a joke. I don't care if he cost $200 let alone $200000. This team is not rebuilding when you add this guy to the mix. I truly hope that the Tribe does well and that I am dead wrong but I believe every Tribe fan should be prepared for the worst because it is very possible we could be bad for a long time.

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[Alex]

Hart's major weakness was not shoring up our pitching in time...

I addressed that on another topic post...

Take a stab at refuting that post.

It's called "Is John Hart really anti-pitching?
http://www.hostboard.com/ubb/Forum757/HTML/000127.html

If you can't refute that post, than Hart did an admirable job in his tenure here.

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Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited December 22, 2001).]

[*TR]

Having started this I feel I have license to add a few comments....gotta side with Alex on this one...anyone who thinks the 2002 Tribe is better WITHOUT Alomar/Gonzalez is definitely delusional. The additions of Anderson, Lawton, Guttierez and Riggan aren't even close to compensating for the loss of Alomar, Gonzalez, and the moving of Baez out of the bullpen (Lofton is a non-factor). Escobar and Traber are potential good players but their are lots of skeptics. Escobar was much more highly regarded two years ago. Since then he has regressed and shows poor plate discipline with a very high strike-out rate. Traber can pitch. However he's doing it with a partial tear of an elbow ligament that many think will require him to have major surgury before he becomes a star. Earl Snyder may be a part-time DH someday. Big whoopee! Lawton is a nice addition but with the contract extension $$$ we could have just have easily signed Damon(2+ yrs. younger)and had to trade no one. Shapiro may need to rebuild but signing 30+ yr old players to multi-yr contracts isn't the way. And the pitching hasn't been addressed at all (except for overpaying for an aging and out-of-shape Wickman). Baez starting will be an adventure, he never had any great success in the minors as a starter. He looked like he was born to close last year, but we have closed that option. I loved the first 6 years of John Hart's tenure but hated the last few. So far Mark Shapiro has done NOTHING impressive except for managing to get draft picks for Gonzalez which fell in his lap.
ps-Tribe not only matched up well with Seattle/NY/Oakland but SHOULD have beaten Seattle and could have beaten NY. We were sabatoged by poor managing and an absolutely worthless Travis Fryman who should not have been playing(all year!).

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[Swanny]

Didn't you mean to say "gotta side with Swanny" on this one??? Feel free to edit your post.

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[supersleuth]

Of course the 2002 Tribe will be worse; personally, I don't think we'll reach .500. _If_ Shapiro's evaluations of young players like Bradley and Escobar are accurate, then the team should improve rapidly from 2002 on. Since the alternative to this gamble was to try to hang on one more year- in the process, destroying the club's future by spending money that will later be needed to keep the Colons and Sabathias in Cleveland- I'll go along with the gamble and cross my fingers, thank you very much.

I'm OK with the Lawton deal but I do think Shapiro paid a couple million per year too much for a stopgap 2B. If that turns out to be his worst mistake, though, we'll be in good shape. Now, signing Gonzalez to a big-bucks long-term deal (the only way to keep him), _that_ would have been a big, and Hart-like, mistake. In my opinion of course, worth what you paid for it.

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[This message has been edited by supersleuth (edited December 22, 2001).]

[The Genius]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *TR:
We were sabatoged by poor managing and an absolutely worthless Travis Fryman who should not have been playing(all year!).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(applause) and Lofton batting .100, and Finley losing two games.