How well would the 416z and the 604c combine?

[theophile]

I know this one seems to come from way left of field.I have a pair of 846A Valencias,and a pair of 604c drivers.
I use and LOVE the Valencias.Whenever I look at the 604c drivers I just can't help but wonder how well a combination of the 416z woofer and the 604c driver would work.
Obviously I'd use the 416s only for bass duty and the 604s for mid/treble.
Any opinions as to whether this would be a triumph or a disaster?

[theophile]

I didn't mention that I have modded the Valencias which are DIY active using an active crossover.This is how I would implement the project with the 416 and the 604.

[LICORNE]

The 416 was not made for a sub. Your limiting it to a few hundred cycles. Have you thought instead of a mantaray horn from 500 hz to 5000hz and 5000hz to 20000hz in your duplex tweeter.
Such as the 604 hpln.


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[GM]

Greets!

'Left field'? Hardly, Altec-Japan marketed 604/416 studio monitors combined with a super tweeter and by the early '70s was installing either this or 604/411 combos in soffit stereo arrays above the mixer window in the better USA studios. Anyway, unless your room layout dictates they be smack up against a wall or in a corner, I recommend using a bipole layout with the 416 on the rear to get much reduced cab vibration and built in baffle step diffraction loss compensation.

GM

[LICORNE]

That is correct. In one of my earlier post I posted the following from Japan.Both systems work verry well. The first was used for the sound system by that famous rock group
that performed the song the wall.Forgot the name.

[scott fitlin]

Ah, Pink Floyd be the name of that band! Good heady music indeed!

[joyspring]

Theophile:

Bi-amping using the 604 as a MF/HF and something else as a sub is a great idea.

Note that I mention `something else'; the 416 would not constitute a very effective subwoofer. It does not move enough air (low Xmax) and it would be quite difficult attaining a reasonable LF cutoff because of the 416's relatively low Qts.

One of the greatest benefits of bi-amplifying is the fact that you can use drivers of different efficiencies in the system; mating a high-efficiency MF/HF 604 with a low-efficiency LF driver is facile.

Lastly, I highly recommend constructing the sub enclosure separate from the 604 enclosures and using a low (80 - 100 hz) crossover point.

A separate sub enclosure allows you to vary its room placement independently of the 604s. This will prove to be essential in the effort to mitigate room modes and optimise LF response.

GM / Convergence:

Altec-Japan marketed 604/416 studio monitors combined with a super tweeter

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting system; looks like an Audio Techniques `Big Red' (604E + Mastering Lab crossover + 15" Utah LF) knockoff.

Notable that these were never marketed in the US; the Japanese will purchase anything with `Altec' (or `JBL', `Western Electric', etc.) badging, performance nonwithstanding. No prejudice (I'm of non-white descent myself) - just a cultural observation.

This system in particular uses a 604-8H with Mantaray, dating it somewhat past the mid-1970s. Read on for the significance of this chronology...

by the early '70s was installing either this or 604/411 combos in soffit stereo arrays above the mixer window in the better USA studios.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And mostly binned by the late 1970s.

By then, I saw a few `Big Red' systems and a couple remaining Altec 604-8G/620A systems in LA studios...

By the mid-1970s, JBL and Westlake were producing systems that offered wide(r) dispersion, high acoustic output and most importantly, wide and flat frequency response.

These changes were dictated by significant improvements in the recording chain (i.e. - recording tape) and consumer playback systems.

In 1976, UREI resurrected the 604 back in professional usage with its Time-Aligned(tm) crossover -- apart from the time-alignment, the most important attribute was the addition of a MF trap and HF equalisation that (finally) flattened the 604's response and extended it to 15 kHz.

BobR

[Steve Burger]

Why not use the 416 as a sub? Despite some maligning I have seen on "the other" Lansing fan site, it should work quite well. I was looking at some specs a while back (can't remember the program) and it was almost identical to the JBL LE15 which always had the reputation as a real bottom end thumper.

[theophile]

WOW!!!,
The picture posted by Convergence of the wood-panelled Japanese recording studio is EXACTLY what I had in mind!
I dont want the 416 to be operating as a subwoofer,but simply to take advantage of the opinion I've seen stated that the 416 had better bass than the 515,and the 515 had a better midrange than the 416.The other sentiment I've seen expressed is that the 802 is a better sounding compression driver than the 806 used in my Valencias.
My thinking was that if a 604 is essentially a 515 siamese-twinlike attatched to a 802,with what I've got on hand,I'd be able to make a speaker which had the superior mid/treble of the 515/802(604c)AND the superior bass of the 416 by combining the 416 with the 604c.
That's the insight into WHY I'm thinking of combining the two drivers.
Just going on that photo of the japanese studio,it's obviously do-able,and may even be excellent.
I'm really excited about this project now!
Anyone know the model number of that Speaker in the picture?

[theophile]

DUH!
Okay,the model number is 6041.It's prominently displayed in the Altec ad.