604's are back they sound great.

[voice of the theater]

.......As for your amp, it's a pretty well flogged horse, but you might want to consider tubes for your amplification. SS/transistors produce odd numbered harmonics which cuase speakers to sound "harsh", "brittle" etc. Despite having more distortion by the numbers, tubes produce even numbered harmonics, mostly 1st order if I understand correctly, which sound pleasing to the human ear.

Find a friend with a good tube amp, and have them bring it by for a demo session....:2thumbsup:

From what you described, I think the used Marantz amp you bought is clipping/greatly distorting once you turn it up past 1/4 of the way. I agree with analog addict--unfortunately--"it's a pretty well flogged horse". It's probably repairable but I doubt if it's worth the expense. I think you mentioned a while back that you're kind of new at this "high end audio" hobby--there are a few solid tips I can give you even though I'm NOT the biggest expert here by any stretch of the imagination. First of all, never (almost never?) buy a used/and or vintage amp/receiver unless you know (or know of) someone trustworthy who DEFINITELY has lots of experience and knows what they're doing as far as restoring/repairing high end/vintage amps etc. in case you run into any problems with it. Your local stereo store might have a repair man, but he may not have a clue how to properly restore/repair a high end vintage amp regardless of what the people in that store try to tell you. Many used/and or vintage amps need (sometimes major) work done on them to be restored to their original working condition.... Unfortunately, like a used car, many people who have an old Marantz (for example) that starts to distort, clip, get noisy, etc. decide "well, this amps not working right--it's time to sell this baby while there's still any sound coming out of it at all!". Those Altec 604's are very efficient--at 10 watts continuous they'll peel the wallpaper off your walls. If your amp is clipping and they're not as loud as you'd like to hear them, it's probably clipping at a much lower power output than it's rated at. In that condition, I wouldn't be surprised if you're getting distortion even at lower power outputs (below that 1/4 point you mentioned)--and the overall sound quality you're hearing through your speakers at ANY volume setting is likely nowhere near as good as it should be with a properly working "good" amp/receiver.

Ok as of 5:30 am they are back in the original cabs, the bass seems slightly deeper but the mids seem a little less powerful than they were in the black cabs. For some reason I can't go any higher than about a 1/4 volume on my Marantz after that they start sounding not so good and don't seem to get any louder. Below that they sound really nice though.....I wonder if I need more power or something newer like a denon. also the treble is cranked all the way up on the marantz to get good clarity from the HF. they were doing the same thing in the black cabs too you couldn't go beyond above 1/4 volume or they just got worse sounding.

Yes, I think it's time to get an amp that will do those speakers justice. AA gave you some good advice--if you know someone with a good tube amp--have him bring it over and give it a try. If not, there are some great tube amps that people here can recommend to you--but as I said don't buy a used one unless you have a TRUSTED/experienced tech guy who knows how to repair/restore high end vintage amps (in case it has problems like your Marantz). If you buy a new tube amp, make sure it's a good one. Here's a nice one but it's about $7,000 brand new (this one's an integrated amp, you could go with separate pre amp and power amp as well.
McIntosh | MA2275 At 75 watts a channel--it will be incredibly loud even when it's not turned anywhere near full volume with those 604's. Being a brand new amp, it should sound WAY better than the old Marantz--you'll probably notice better bass, mids, highs, etc. the second you hook it up.... If that's out of your price range, there's many inexpensive good tube amps (a few hundred dollars) that people here can recommend that will also be plenty loud and upgrade your sound quality dramatically--you may find your speakers are not lacking in midrange,bass, or treble at all once hooked up to a nice amp.

Yep their Identical to mine, I switched the wires on my HF and the speakers sound better now but the ceiling isn't collapsing in so they have more awesomeness to be brought out in them....I almost started swapping them a few minutes ago but it's already pushing 3 am and I'm on vaca all week. I want my heart to stop beating when I wind these mama's up.

I know you want those babies to be able to play LOUD, I wouldn't buy an amp that's less than 60 watts a channel. Even though you'll probably never be able to be in the same room with them at anywhere near 60 watts a channel, that will give you some headroom when Jack Black blows something up in "Tropic Thunder"! Believe it or not, there are plenty of audiophiles who run speakers like yours with tube amps that only can put out a few watts per channel (less than 10)--and they sound great and are loud even with one watt (continuous) put through them--but you'll want plenty of headroom for home theater -- especially since you really like to crank them up. Of course people can run 200 watt amps etc. with their home stereo/theater, but the Altecs you own are incredibly efficient (like pretty much all of the vintage Altecs) they'll be deafening before you even get to 60 watts a channel and will blow up (be FRIED) at anywhere near 200 watts etc.....

OK, so far I've been treading on pretty safe ground here. I guess it's time to stick my neck out a little. Of course you know--in audio, like in life, opinions are all over the map. There are people who swear that CD's are better than vinyl, vinyl better than CD or DVD Audio, tubes are better than transistors, transistors are better than tubes, etc... A guy who's occasionally on this forum, Tom Brennan (who's owned many vintage Altecs over the years including Model 19's), gave me some good advice out of the blue quite a while ago. When I bought my AS 101's, I joined the Lansing Heritage Forum to get some advice on how to replace the old capacitors in the crossovers. He, and Zilch, and others there gave me some great advice/assistance and at that time Tom recommended that I join this Altec hostboard. I did, and got some great advice here on re-capping my AS-101s from people like Old Guy, Bowtie, bfish, etc. I now frequent both boards but I spend more time here as this board is entirely devoted to Altec. Anyways, Tom is of the opinion that tubes are great for great high end speakers like vintage Altecs, but that GOOD solid state is just AS GOOD. OK, here's where I'll stick my neck out. I agree that good solid state is just as good as tube amplification. That's my opinion--and I've owned many high end solid state and tube amps/pre-amps/integrated amps/and even (gulp) solid state receivers through the years. A nice tube amp sounds great, and so does a nice solid state amp. The reason I bring this up is that I know people here recommended tube amps to you quite a while ago, and you bought a solid state Marantz and you keep mentioning that maybe you should buy a Denon. You seemed inclined to go with a solid state amp/receiver--and as I said before, in my opinion that's fine but I'd buy a new one and not another used lemon (unless you have a good tech guy). I recommend that you DON'T buy a Denon--they were decent MANY YEARS AGO but their build quality etc. these days is not very good. Here's where I'll stick my neck WAY out for you--what I'll recommend as far as an inexpensive, kick ass, solid state receiver is this (gulp) new Harman Kardon receiver. The reason I hesitate to go on record recommending Harman Kardon is that there are a lot of people who HATE that company. Harman Kardon bought out JBL (and many say ruined the company!), and many other "atrocities" they have committed (probably all true!) and some even say the new H.K. stuff is not all that good any more (I can't speak for all Harman Kardon products but I can say in the case of this receiver the quality/design/build is great). My brother owns one of these and it sounds amazing--and it has received great reviews as well. Here's the (gulp) link.... Amazon.com: Harman Kardon HK 3390 High Performance 2 x 80W Stereo Receiver: Electronics

My brother replaced his Denon receiver with this HK 3390 and the difference was astonishing. Much more dynamic, clear/clean, open sounding with noticeably better bass but still has nice crisp highs. I couldn't believe how good this thing sounds when I first heard it in his living room. This receiver has a "big brother" which is essentially the same design but with more digital features (which you may or may not want) and a little more power (which you won't need). Amazon.com: Harman Kardon HK 3490 120 Watt X 2 Stereo Receiver with XM Radio-ready Tuner and Dolby Virtual Speaker: Electronics

These links are both for Amazon Vendors--Amazon itself also carries both of these receivers directly (which means free super saver shipping) but they are currently out of stock. I see that today, through the Amazon vendors, the prices are $279 and $406 respectively for the two receivers. If you wait a week or two Amazon usually sells them for around $239 and $329 respectively with free shipping. With Amazon, if you don't like it, send it back and get a full refund even though you've opened the box and cranked it up. But I'm confident you will be happy if you buy one of these--my brother's receiver sounds that good! One of the many rave reviews I read went on about how great this receiver is and said that it's the least "transistor sounding" solid state amp they had tested recently. There are tons of other great reviews of it online. Unbelievable price as well. If you want to see when Amazon has it back in stock just do an Amazon search for Harman Kardon 3390 or Harman Kardon 3490, whereas if you click on the links I provided you they'll just take you back to the Amazon vendors and you won't find out if Amazon itself has it back in stock with free shipping......

More info/specs.....
Harman Kardon - HK 3390

Harman Kardon - HK 3490Harman Kardon - HK 3490
So, if you're inclined to go with solid state (which you seem to be)--that's the best advice/opinion I can give you as far as something that sounds amazing and is also quite a deal. If you want to go with tubes, there are a lot of people here who can recommend some great tube amps as well....

BTW, I agree with you and AB that it's worth trying the old crossovers again to see which crossovers sound better in the original cabs but that of course be would something to do in addition to replacing that old Marantz, not instead of replacing it.

[voice of the theater]

..........I can't remember actually I think they did sound this way... I really find it odd that these cabinets with ports that are 5" tall and 17" wide is the proper port size for this enclosure seems way to big. I know I didn't have to turn the treble knob all the way up before so I think the crossovers are the culprit there. I think Analog Addict was right I should have switched one and the listened to them both. Maybe I should hook Optimus prime back up to them, I think it's rated at 90 watts where the Marantz is only 16.... Also I stuck with my wiring the HF backwards which at low volume seems to make the HF stick out better and it sounds clearer but at higher speed it sounds horrible kind of an out of phasey sound. also this dry weather kinda tightened the cabs so much it's really hard to get the backs off, I should splurge a couple of bucks and buy some drawer pulls for them.

I see you just posted while I was typing my last post. That's going to have to be my last long post for 2010--I need to get off the computer now! Anyways, briefly, you shouldn't have to reverse the polarity to your H.F. drivers--and if it sounds "phasey" with them reversed you'll want to switch them back. Before you can make a definitive judgement call as far as which crossover sounds better, I'd fix your amplification problem. With a clean amp it will be very obvious that either the new or old crossovers sound better, whereas with a malfunctioning amp the worse crossovers might not sound any worse than the better sounding ones if your old amp has a skewed frequency response, high distortion, etc. due to its present condition. If you have a (patient) friend with a great amp, have him bring it over and try swapping crossovers and it should be a no brainer which sound better -- either the originals or the new ones. If you don't have a friend with a great amp, you know your Optimus and Marantz are crap, I'd buy a nice amp (you're going to need one anyways) and once it arrives determine which crossovers sound better. I think you'll still find the original cabs sound way better no matter what crossovers you use. As far as the port size goes, it will be a lot easier (and more accurate) to figure out once you have a properly working amp. If you still feel there's not enough bass then use the old trial and error method. Block part of the port from the inside of the cabinet by "tacking in" a piece of wood and then of course closing up the back of the cab (start with blocking half of the port for example and you'll hear a difference--better or worse) and if it sounds way better--you've succeeded in moving towards a better tuning. Then experiment with blocking 2/3, 1/3, etc. and you'll eventually home in on your ultimate preferred tuning/port size. With the right size ports those original cabs will produce great bass. The ports may already be the ideal size once you have a good amp connected but with a little experimentation you'll learn a lot. Same thing if blocking half of the port sounds way worse--try blocking 1/4 of the port etc. and experiment with port size until you get what you want. Unless you have a lot more knowledge and computer/testing software/equipment than I have (and than I presume you have), the trial and error method is the best way to get it just right. You may spend all day experimenting with different port sizes, but then every day after that you'll be happy you spent the time to get those babies tuned just the way you like them. As GM said

Well, it can be determined empirically by experimenting with different size vent areas......

GM

[cradeldorf]

I agree with you, I think this Marantz which was probably hauled out of a goodwill cleaned up and stuffed on Ebay was probably abused as crap all it's life and has seen better days. I will look into the Harmon Kardon I always heard they were exceptional. The bass rumbles pretty good on these but I'm not losing bricks out of the foundation but anything above that is mediocre at best. I also agree that chasing problems when the receiver isn't working right is just a waste of time. High distortion and clipping is exactly how I would describe what I'm hearing. I have 2 pieces of testing equipment my left ear and my right.

Thanks again Vott. :2thumbsup:

Ok Question, when I look at the back of that Harman Kardon there are video in and outs....why do you run video through it???

[voice of the theater]

I agree with you, I think this Marantz which was probably hauled out of a goodwill cleaned up and stuffed on Ebay was probably abused as crap all it's life and has seen better days. I will look into the Harmon Kardon I always heard they were exceptional. The bass rumbles pretty good on these but I'm not losing bricks out of the foundation but anything above that is mediocre at best. I also agree that chasing problems when the receiver isn't working right is just a waste of time. High distortion and clipping is exactly how I would describe what I'm hearing. I have 2 pieces of testing equipment my left ear and my right.

Thanks again Vott. :2thumbsup:

Ok Question, when I look at the back of that Harman Kardon there are video in and outs....why do you run video through it???

I know that the receiver does nothing to alter the video signal. As far as answering your question, I'm not positive because I've never run video through a receiver like this (and I know my brother doesn't run video through his Harman Kardon receiver) but I think some people like to run their video signal through a receiver like this one for switching purposes--just so that with one remote they can not only adjust the volume and audio input etc., but they can also switch their video signal they're sending to their TV from DVD to VHS or Cable Box/Satellite Box etc. all with one receiver remote......

I've been where you are before (as have many people here on this board)-- a "new" used pair of classic vintage (audiophile) speakers that need some effort to get them to sound as incredible as they should. Even though it's work, the payoff is amazing when you're done and you can sit back and enjoy a system that knocks your socks off day after day......

[cradeldorf]

Ok they are already back into the black Cabs. I switched one and then listened. I'm sad to report that my Black cabs blow the Heathkits out of the water. seriously they were like night and day the Heathkits were rumbly but had nothing else the Black ones sound tight and punchy and seem to be louder at the same volume??? I still haven't done the adjustable port on them but I think that I should wait to get the new receiver before trying to tune them. Also I did swap the HF wires back to where they belong although I'm not convinced that had much to do with the sound The sound coming from the Heathkits was a loose bass sound and the mids were really non existent.

[voice of the theater]

Ok they are already back into the black Cabs. I switched one and then listened. I'm sad to report that my Black cabs blow the Heathkits out of the water. seriously they were like night and day the Heathkits were rumbly but had nothing else the Black ones sound tight and punchy and seem to be louder at the same volume??? I still haven't done the adjustable port on them but I think that I should wait to get the new receiver before trying to tune them. Also I did swap the HF wires back to where they belong although I'm not convinced that had much to do with the sound The sound coming from the Heathkits was a loose bass sound and the mids were really non existent.

OK, then it was well worth swapping them out so now you know for sure which cabs sound better. You must have done a nice job building those black cabs for them to sound that much better than the Heathkits. Not to mention the tuning on those Heathkits (port size and possibly even the "shelving"/DBR inside) is probably way off if they sound that bad. Mine looked identical to yours except that they had a smaller port and had no "shelving" inside and of course their baffle was cut for the 416-8A woofer and the 811B horn (with 806-8A HF driver). I thought that maybe the bigger port on yours had something to do with the DBR tuning (which I'd never even heard of before reading one of the posts in your original thread) but apparently not..... Just out of curiosity--did you try re-reversing the wires to the high frequency drivers (wiring them the way they originally were, instead of your reverse wiring experiment) while they were in the Heathkit cabs or did you wait to correct the wiring until they were back in the black cabs? I'm asking because of course much of your midrange comes from those high frequency drivers and I have no idea what wiring them backwards while leaving the bass connection wired properly does to the sound of one of those duplexes--it may have no effect or a substantial effect--I'm sure there are people here who would know--I've never owned a duplex speaker although I know they're a classic Altec speaker that are very highly regarded by the (vintage) Altec community. Regardless--it still sounds like the tuning is way off in the Heathkits for them to sound that bad--just wondering how they were wired while in those cabs.... Anyways, hopefully when you have a new amp and have made a crossover selection between the two pair of crossovers that you own (and possibly a port modification in the black cabs if adjustment in them is still needed at that point), you'll have one killer system that won't hog all the space in your listening room.....

[cradeldorf]

OK, then it was well worth swapping them out so now you know for sure which cabs sound better. You must have done a nice job building those black cabs for them to sound that much better than the Heathkits. Not to mention the tuning on those Heathkits (port size and possibly even the "shelving"/DBR inside) is probably way off if they sound that bad. Mine looked identical to yours except that they had a smaller port and had no "shelving" inside and of course their baffle was cut for the 416-8A woofer and the 811B horn (with 806-8A HF driver). I thought that maybe the bigger port on yours had something to do with the DBR tuning (which I'd never even heard of before reading one of the posts in your original thread) but apparently not..... Just out of curiosity--did you try re-reversing the wires to the high frequency drivers (wiring them the way they originally were, instead of your reverse wiring experiment) while they were in the Heathkit cabs or did you wait to correct the wiring until they were back in the black cabs? I'm asking because of course much of your midrange comes from those high frequency drivers and I have no idea what wiring them backwards while leaving the bass connection wired properly does to the sound of one of those duplexes--it may have no effect or a substantial effect--I'm sure there are people here who would know--I've never owned a duplex speaker although I know they're a classic Altec speaker that are very highly regarded by the (vintage) Altec community. Regardless--it still sounds like the tuning is way off in the Heathkits for them to sound that bad--just wondering how they were wired while in those cabs.... Anyways, hopefully when you have a new amp and have made a crossover selection between the two pair of crossovers that you own (and possibly a port modification in the black cabs if adjustment in them is still needed at that point), you'll have one killer system that won't hog all the space in your listening room.....

I don't know why I was thinking the midrange comes from the woofer......I think I was having a brain fart. But to further elaborate, I did not switch the wires in the Heathkits and listen simply because I didn't want to go through trying to get the backs off again...they're super tight. and personally I don't think the port on them is tuned I think it's the gaping hole where the 511 should have went had they been set up with the right speakers.

P.S. the new $220 HK receiver ships tomorrow !!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the tip. ; )

[GM]

I don't know why I was thinking the midrange comes from the woofer.....

...they're super tight.

and personally I don't think the port on them is tuned I think it's the gaping hole where the 511 should have went had they been set up with the right speakers.

It does, the mids end around 1300 Hz and the XO is nominally 1500-1600 Hz........

Use bar soap to lubricate the edges, same as for all wooden slide drawers.

Dunno, if they're early enough cabs they would typically be tuned up around 65-75 Hz (big vent) since LP records didn't go below ~75 Hz and 45s below ~100-125 Hz plus TT 'rumble' was quite high, so you didn't want a low tuning. The Salon 604 cabs had a big rectangular vent of around 117"^2 and the early Iconics around 69"^2.

Vintage speakers are a sign of their times same as cars, etc. and Altec and a few other brands were SOTA, but compared to today, very lo-fi in some ways due to the technological limits of the day. Thankfully, they over engineered them to a great extent, so highly adaptable to different tunings, response shaping EQ.

GM

[voice of the theater]

It does, the mids end around 1300 Hz and the XO is nominally 1500-1600 Hz........

Use bar soap to lubricate the edges, same as for all wooden slide drawers.
GM

I was still thinking of the crossover in my AS 101's. They had the stock 800 hz crossover (same as Valencias, Flamencos, etc. all have). In those speakers, a good chunk of your midrange is coming from the horn/hi frequency driver. In fact, even in my Model 19's, the crossover point is 1200 hz, and even at that higher crossover point if you disconnect the horn, you lose a lot of the midrange (especially upper midrange). Most of the 604 Duplex Speakers use a (stock) 1500 or 1600 hz crossover (often an N1500A or N1600A) which are probably what the originals are that came with your Duplexes. If this is your new crossover that you got from GPA (I'm guessing maybe this one?) http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/N604-8A.pdf then your new crossover frequency is 1500 hz and in that case I would agree (of course!) with GM that not much of the midrange is coming out of your hf driver..... If you get bored waiting for your new receiver to arrive and you want to see for yourself how much of the mids are coming out of that driver just disconnect the h.f. driver and you'll probably notice that some of the upper mids disappear but much of your midrange will most likely be largely unaffected..... But I'm still not sure what kind of phase problems/effect if any (cancellation etc?) would be caused by reversing the polarity on the hf driver while leaving the polarity correct for the woofer on a duplex speaker and how much impact if any that would have on your midrange......

P.S. the new $220 HK receiver ships tomorrow !!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the tip. ; )

Your welcome. I just clicked on the link I provided you and yes, Amazon has it back in stock for $219.99 plus free shipping--unbelievable! The nice thing about this receiver is that not only does it look great on paper (for example, at full power output of 160 watts=80x2, only .07% THD), but I've heard this thing and it sounds amazingly clean, clear, and uncolored as I mentioned before with great low end but still nice crisp highs. I've been watching to see when Amazon got them back in stock because I'm probably going to buy one for myself. I've been wanting to set up a nice system in my garage/workshop (it will be the 4th stereo system that I have in my house--um, maybe I'm addicted to Altecs!) and after I heard my brother's receiver I decided I wasn't going to hunt for another vintage amp this time for this system--I was going to buy one just like his. Once I have one in my house, I'm going to compare it to some of the amps I'm currently using on my other three systems -- using the same speakers/components/rooms that each system currently uses, and just swap out the receiver for the current amp I'm using in each system-- I think it will give them a run for their money (I can be kind of (!) obsessive about doing A/B comparisons whenever I buy new audio gear). If it sounds even better than what I'm using now for amplification on any of my other three systems (I'm almost hoping it doesn't! :doh: ), then maybe I've been paying way too much for amplification!!

[cradeldorf]

I was still thinking of the crossover in my AS 101's. They had the stock 800 hz crossover (same as Valencias, Flamencos, etc. all have). In those speakers, a good chunk of your midrange is coming from the horn/hi frequency driver. In fact, even in my Model 19's, the crossover point is 1200 hz, and even at that higher crossover point if you disconnect the horn, you lose a lot of the midrange (especially upper midrange). Most of the 604 Duplex Speakers use a (stock) 1500 or 1600 hz crossover (often an N1500A or N1600A) which are probably what the originals are that came with your Duplexes. If this is your new crossover that you got from GPA (I'm guessing maybe this one?) http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/downloads/N604-8A.pdf then your new crossover frequency is 1500 hz and in that case I would agree (of course!) with GM that not much of the midrange is coming out of your hf driver..... If you get bored waiting for your new receiver to arrive and you want to see for yourself how much of the mids are coming out of that driver just disconnect the h.f. driver and you'll probably notice that some of the upper mids disappear but much of your midrange will most likely be largely unaffected..... But I'm still not sure what kind of phase problems/effect if any (cancellation etc?) would be caused by reversing the polarity on the hf driver while leaving the polarity correct for the woofer on a duplex speaker and how much impact if any that would have on your midrange......



Your welcome. I just clicked on the link I provided you and yes, Amazon has it back in stock for $219.99 plus free shipping--unbelievable! The nice thing about this receiver is that not only does it look great on paper (for example, at full power output of 160 watts=80x2, only .07% THD), but I've heard this thing and it sounds amazingly clean, clear, and uncolored as I mentioned before with great low end but still nice crisp highs. I've been watching to see when Amazon got them back in stock because I'm probably going to buy one for myself. I've been wanting to set up a nice system in my garage/workshop (it will be the 4th stereo system that I have in my house--um, maybe I'm addicted to Altecs!) and after I heard my brother's receiver I decided I wasn't going to hunt for another vintage amp this time for this system--I was going to buy one just like his. Once I have one in my house, I'm going to compare it to some of the amps I'm currently using on my other three systems -- using the same speakers/components/rooms that each system currently uses, and just swap out the receiver for the current amp I'm using in each system-- I think it will give them a run for their money (I can be kind of (!) obsessive about doing A/B comparisons whenever I buy new audio gear). If it sounds even better than what I'm using now for amplification on any of my other three systems (I'm almost hoping it doesn't! :doh: ), then maybe I've been paying way too much for amplification!!

You sir have an addiction....I hope it isn't contagious....something tells me it is. :rotfl: