A friend stopped by today to give a listen to my 604c's for the first time. I consider him very well versed in most aspects of vintage audio especially the 604c. He is the person that guided me down the path that led me to where I am today. After a good listening period he told me that he believed I had two different frams.. since both were an original pair that came from the original owner and both were untouched (the red paint on the screws was unharmed) I questioned this. He said there there were actually a few different versions that the factory installed with one being especially good. It depended on production date. Both of these are 1957 604's.. he stated that it could have been even a matter of weeks or even days from one fram to the next in production. This sounds possible.. According to him I have one of the especially good ones which is not to say the other isn't great too. His exact words were Stellar and super Stellar..
Can anyone add information regarding this? I'd love to hear about it.
Not to disagree with an expert but I think you'll find that most of the discrepancies in Altec parts and cones in particular came from the late 70's to the end of the road for Altec. They used whatever parts were available to make the model. There are 416's with white frames, 604-8g's with and without front accessible horn mount screws etc.
I'm a big fan of Altec and have 19's and 604-8g's, both of which are the end of the trail for me.
With diaphragms that age, fatigue is likely to be the reason for difference, not different types.
Minor manufacturing differences, even slight tolerance differences, can amplify to possibly audible differences 50+ years later.
I'd say they will be part number 20275 diaphragms, the 16 ohm 1 inch.
The point? Do they sound great to you? If yes, then who cares what someone else thinks.
Make sure it's not the amp balance being off slightly or something simple like that.
The same diaphragms show up in 802B's, they've become as rare as the old timers who knew about them.Can anyone add information regarding this? I'd love to hear about it.
Not all vegetables make good leaders.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and that is what he seems to have. Not that his info is wrong, he just doesn't know the full story. If you have original frams, there is only ONE design. The "good" one he is talking about was made 20-25 years AFTER your speakers. I suspect it's either fatigue, as mentioned, or an electrical issue if they sound different.
Your neighbors called. They like your music.
Is it possible that undocumented changes were made?
We had a friend, actually my older brother's friend met through another "hobby", who was a for many years a projectionist in the SYR area. His audio/radio collection was my first listening experience with a large format Altec speakers, had a lot of "firsts" at his place beginning in the late 1980's. First and only place i've ever seen an amplifier that used thoriated heaters in some of it's tubes, kinda shocking to see that much light come from a tube heater.
Anywho, this fella (Art) was always seeking 802B's for their diaphragms, i'm sure he made some off handed comments about "why" but i never had the awareness to have any depth of interest in that stuff when we were making trips up there. While i'd been exposed to Altec consumer stuff as a child and teenager, and lived with model 17/604-8G from the late 70's into the early 80's, my interest never became passionate until the late 90's when introduced to the internet and ebay.
Maybe his motives were based on ancient urban legend or pure myth, but my recollect is that he wanted 802B's specifically. "The rough paint, they gotta have the rough paint, if they're smooth they're no good" is what i distinctly remember him saying. I wish he were still with us, or my visits more recent.
I have also heard/read others desire and preference for undisturbed 802B's, but never accompanied by an explanation of "why".
Sorry, i can really only add to any mystery.
Not all vegetables make good leaders.
My thought exactly! Vintage amps, crossovers, components, etc. I would swap the speakers just to make sure the "super stellar" is really the one. But if you don't hear a difference to begin with...why bother.Originally Posted by cradeldorf
Further discussion with my friend today about the frams involved a feeling from him that late production 604c's had frams that were special by accident. Something about the metallurgy and they way the material from the supplier came through.. He also said they have a different part no. I have not cracked open the drivers to confirm. These are untouched so I don't plan on doing it. This afternoon, I had some time to play and picked out a few albums that had excellent bell ringing sections.. doing an A/B test in mono with the speakers being switched back and forth from amps. There IS a slight difference. The one speaker he stated as having the stellar fram does have more sparkle. I bought this pair of speakers from the family of the original owner. He purchased them NEW as a pair in late '57 for his audio service/sales shop. This was a backup pair in case anything happened to his main pair (four purchased at the same time).. These speakers saw very little use. They are pristine and untouched both with 1957 stamped on the basket. I am using a Fisher 400c and a pair of Heathkit W4's that I rebuilt as twins and have hotrodded and upgraded to use 6L6GC's.. a matched quad of new tubes from Tube Amp Doctor. So for all intents and purposes we have matching amps. All listening tests were done in mono.. so without question the one 604c has more sparkle (super stellar).. the one that doesn't still sounds stellar! But there is a minute difference. Anyway, I'm not trying to be nit picky, I absolutely love the sound of both speakers.. I was just hoping someone could confirm these findings or expound on it more. I love the history behind these things and if there is information out there it's great to keep it alive. Thanks, Pat
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