miniDV as a storage option?

[Scottness]

i everyone thanks for the advice - it'll take me a while to absorb it all! - but it basically answers my question - yes it's alright to do that - and woohoo you alos have a miniDV camera to use, rather than jsut a harddrive sitting in your computer. Just to clarify what I'd be looking at doing is recording the synched audio and video files (becasue they're unsynched and seperate at the moment) for all the takes of each shot - and also recording how I edit them altogether as well.

Thanks for the advice

Scot M

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[crimsonson]

Alex:

I like BetaSP as a format, especially those in a budget. I do think that if push comes to shove, BSP is better than DV in technical qualities. However, that difference is largely dependant on the chroma sampling only. And that too has its limits...


Alex:
'The idea was that first generation was terrific, but as you went to the second and third and so on, you would lose quality.
The new "digital school" of thought is that even first generation analog is somehow a loss!"

Crim:
Thats an accurate statement, especially if tranfer was done through component.

Alex:
"It's important to note that mini-dv has a meg-bits per second data rate of somewhere between 3.5 to 9.0."

Incorrect:
DV is either 25 Megabits per second or 3.6 Megabytes p/s.


Alex:
"BetaCam Sp falls somewhere near Digital BetaCam."


Incorrect unless you meant when compared to DV. It should say 'slightly nearer to' and not 'near'. Big difference. Again only in chroma sampling. However, DV has the same luma and chroma bandwidth as BSP.
DigiBeta is far from BSP in quality, Digi is about 1.5-2:1 compression ratio, BSP is 3:1.
DV uses 5:1, but the compression technology is superior used by BSP.


Alex:
"Betacam has vastly more information per frame than Mini-Dv."

Confused. Explain.

Alex:
'You really are allowed to actually play the analog signal back and immediately put it on digital without a loss of quality."
Incorrect, unless you go uncompress. Nevertheless, theoretically that is untrue, since digital sampling is finite, meaning some info must be thrown away no matter what format. The trick is throwing things that are indistinguishable by the human eye (trained or untrained) or immeasurable by a machine.

Again, I am in no illusion in saying the DV is exactly like BSP in technical qualities. However, the difference is often negligible, especially when viewed by regular Joe/Jane. Plus the difference in price and accessibility. A BSP deck is about $4500 plus a decent capture card for PC is another $2000. That is about a difference of about $3000. and that is for a low end BSP deck (UVW 1800).



[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited October 05, 2001).]

[Alex]

Crimsonson, your previous post is a litte confusing.

It looks like you are quoting me when you are actually responding to me.

(the very opening of your previous post does this)

If you use the third icon to the right of the the profile icon, it automatically reproduces the previous post, then you simply keep the parts of that post you are responding to and delete the rest.

Anyway, I get Megabits and Megabytes confused all the time.

I do know that Mini Dv is the 3.0 - 9.0 range, and that encoding BetaCam SP requires a significantly faster data rate than Mini DV...because it has more info on the frame that has to be assimilated.

As I said before, Mini-Dv is excellent if you are starting out, but if you already own BetaCam SP, you are doing everybit as well, and probably somewhat better.

A high quality one time conversion from Beta-Cam SP to Digital should render a better picture if you start from BetaCam SP rather than Mini-Dv.

The key is not to keep bumping back and forth between digital and analog.

Once you come off of BetaCam, don't go back to it, unless you are outputting your final edited master version.

BetaCam SP really has an incredible advantage over Mini-DV because you have access to proc amp controls that control hue, chroma, brightness and phase, and BetaCam
SP uses professional SMPTE time code whereas Mini-DV uses faux time-code that cannot be even set.

Time-code is so essential for virtually all media projects. To not even be able to set time-code from the deck, or several video level parameters, can be a big hinderance for Mini-DV users.

And Mini DV tape will probably never be anywhere near as reliable and archiveable as BetaCam SP tape is.

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Alex

[crimsonson]

Hi ALex:

Sorry about the confusion, my forum replying skills is still a project in progress.

Regarding DV:

DV is FIXED at 3.6 Megabytes p/s or 25 Megabits p/s. You cant change this.

DVCam by Sony and DVC Pro by Panasonic does support timecode. That and locked audio is the only difference between miniDV and DVcam/DVC Pro. The picture quality is still based on the exact same compression technology (3.6, 5:1, etc.). [Except for DVC Pro 50]


"BetaCam SP requires a significantly faster data rate than Mini DV...because it has more info on the frame that has to be assimilated."

Can you explain this, numbers, equations, etc.. because its not self explanitory.


"A high quality one time conversion from Beta-Cam SP to Digital should render a better picture if you start from BetaCam SP rather than Mini-Dv."


This can really only be true if you use uncompressed - 1:1 in order to preserve the original 3:1 BetaSP ratio done by the camera. More than that, I have to disagree because the 5:1 DV compression done by the camera/or deck if your are dubbing from anlogue, is better than a old 3:1 compression technology PLUS the compression you will do in your NLE. With DV you can go to your PC with an exact copy- a clone- no generation lost period.


At the end I agree with you that BetaSP is better than DV, however, the price performance ratio is just too hard to ignore, DV wins hands down.




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[Alex]

But Mini-DV does NOT support SMPTE Time-code.

I agree that the Mini-Dv video format is probably the most cost-effective format on the planet at the moment...but that does not mean it's either the best, or the best for archival purposes.

I think BetaCam SP is sort of the aging champ. It still has certain distinct advantages that relate to the archivability, user friendliness of the format, durability of the tape stock, and it is a companion to the true ultra high end formats such as Digital BetaCam.

If you already have the investment in the BetaCam SP decks, it may make sense to also get Mini-DV, but it does not make sense to dump BetaCam SP and go strictly to Mini DV if you already own the BetaCam SP decks.

If you are about to invest in your first ever system, it makes sense to go with Mini-DV...but keep in mind, you really should do your final mastering onto DV-CAM rather than mini-dv...which means you could ultimately need FOUR DV DECKS if you want to do firewire dubs between decks...

You could end up needing two cameras (or decks) for doing Mini-DV firewire Dubs, and Two DV-CAM decks for doing DV-CAM firewire Dubs.

The computer could be your equalizer and allow you to bump to it, then go back onto a separate tape but in the same mini-dv camcorder...in this scenario, you would need 2 DV decks instead of four for doing FireWire Dubs, one deck or camcorder in the format of Mini-DV, and then one deck in the format of DV-CAM.

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Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 07, 2001).]

[crimsonson]

Alex:

yes BetaSP is the aging champ.


Alex quuote:
"If you already have the investment in the BetaCam SP decks, it may make sense to also get Mini-DV, but it does not make sense to dump BetaCam SP and go strictly to Mini DV if you already own the BetaCam SP decks.

If you are about to invest in your first ever system, it makes sense to go with Mini-DV...but keep in mind, you really should do your final mastering onto DV-CAM rather than mini-dv...which means you could ultimately need FOUR DV DECKS if you want to do firewire dubs between decks...

You could end up needing two cameras for doing Mini-DV firewire Dubs, and Two DV-CAM decks for doing DV-CAM firewire Dubs.

The computer could be your equalizer and allow you to bump to it, then go back onto a separate tape but in the same mini-dv camcorder...in this scenario, you would need 2 DV decks instead of four for doing FireWire Dubs, one deck or camcorder in the format of Mini-DV, and then one deck in the format of DV-CAM."


that would be true if DVCam did not support minDV. HOWEVER, DVCam does support miniDV. You can playback regular miniDV through a DVCAm deck. You can also record. Sony's highly regarded PD150 is DVCam system that allows you to record and playback miniDVs. mostly likely you will need only one.

And yes DVCam supports SMPTE TC. We have edited pieces on our Avid Composer with footages from DVCam played back through a Sony DSR 80 DVCam deck with no problem whatsoever.

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[Alex]

A couple corrections....MINI-DV does not support SMPTE time-code....I keep saying MINI-DV and you keep refuting that by saying DV-CAM does. But that's not my point. My point is that MINI-DV does not support SMPTE time-code.

(please refer to the topic title)

The Higher-End Sony DV-CAM Decks DO NOT RECORD in Mini-DV, they only play back Mini-DV, they do not record in Mini-DV.

That should you tell something about how Sony feels about Mini-DV versus DV-CAM. They don't mind if you use Mini-DV as a camera acquisition format....because they sell a lot of Mini-DV cameras...

But when it comes to recording a new digital signal that is not a camera master, Sony gives you no choice on the DSR-20 or DSR-40, you can ONLY record in DV-CAM, even if you put a Mini-DV tape in the deck, it will record in DV-CAM only, thereby making a 60 minute Mini-DV tape approximately a 40 minute DV-CAM tape.

Can you playback from a Mini-DV camera via the firewire connector and record that signal onto a DV-CAM deck, in DV-CAM ??????

..I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward no.

I know you can go DV-CAM to DV-CAM, and you can go Mini-DV to Mini-DV, but I don't think they are intercompatible via the firewire connection.

This could force one to have to buy two DV decks.

One for recording Mini-DV for clients who need Mini-DV, the other for doing final DV-CAM edit mastering.

And then the final irony is even then, you won't be able to take advantage of "firewire to firewire" digital technology for "lossless" digital copies unless you either have a second DV-CAM deck, or you want use your computer as a second DV deck, loading the digital signal in, and then dubbing it back out to your one DV-CAM deck!

Frankly, that scenario is rather backwards for such a "forward" format.


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Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 06, 2001).]

[crimsonson]

Alex:

You are correct that miniDV does not support TC but my point was why do you need two decks. Its like saying someone should get a BetaSP deck to play/rec BetaSP/Betacams and Beta decks to play/rec BetaOxides. Choose a format.

"That should you tell something about how Sony feels about Mini-DV versus DV-CAM."

Not surprising since it always been Sony's style to corner the market with their own format (BetaSP, BetaSX, Beta, D8, etc., etc)


"if you put a Mini-DV tape in the deck, it will record in DV-CAM only, thereby making a 60 minute Mini-DV tape approximately a 40 minute DV-CAM tape.

Can you playback from a Mini-DV camera via the firewire connector and record that signal onto a DV-CAM deck, in DV-CAM ??????

..I'm not sure, but I'm leaning toward no."


YES YOU CAN. DV, DVCam and DVC Pro (25) are all the SAME, with minor difference. The digital video signal are all the same, compressed the same way. They are under the big umbrella called DV25.

Regarding the 60 minute tape turned to 40. Minor factor, since DVCam have 184 minute tapes and DV also has a platter size tapes.


"This could force one to have to buy two DV decks.

One for recording Mini-DV for clients who need Mini-DV, the other for doing final DV-CAM edit mastering."


As explained previously, its not necessary.

"...digital technology for "lossless" digital copies unless ..."

Losseless should not be under quotation marks since it is lossless.

The TC could be a problem during archiving, however, since Tape/Reel name is also part of batch capture info, you can use that to get around the non TC limitation. However, I agree its a workaround. However (again), miniDV is so cheap because certain features are removed, but the major features (picture and sound quality) are exactly the same from pro gear (quality of lens and cam removed)

BTW- Sony is actually phasing DVCAm out of Japan. they are pushing BEta SX. In Europe and US they are trying to push BetaSX, however, pahsing DVCAM will be a little more difficult in American and Europe since of their growing support.




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[Alex]

I think you're not addressing the exact issue.

Anyone who buys a non-linear system that supports Mini-DV (they all do nowadays) requires you will have to own either own a Mini-DV deck or camera to work with the computer AND anyone who comes to you with a Mini-DV tape and is expecting a Mini-DV digital copy as an edit master.

If however, you want to master onto DV-CAM rather than Mini-DV, as Sony prefers because the same amount of data is laid out over more distance on that tiny tape,thereby increasing the liklihood of data stability over the passage of time, you will need to own a DV-Cam Deck.

The DV-CAM deck you buy will NOT record in Mini-DV mode.

So you need either two decks, or insist the client brings a Mini-DV camera, which can be a real pain because half the time they don't bring a power supply, so you are at the mercy of whether or not their batteries will last long enough.

Plus you have to attach find a place in your set-up to put the camera and be 100% sure the darn thing won't fall or be tipped over.

Have you ever tried to make a DV clone from Mini-DV to DV-CAM?

I tried it once, it did not work...it's possible the new firewire cable I used was not good, as I had no way to test it.

But the different types of time-code that exist between Mini-Dv and DV-CAM formats may make this not be a possibility.

If you have actually made a mini-dv firewire dub over to a DV-CAM tape, please let us know, but don't just assume it is possible.


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Alex

[mattias]

> If you have actually made a mini-dv firewire dub over to a DV-CAM tape, please let us know

i have. the time code was not preserved, but the video data was copied just fine.

/matt