timelapses

[bigmasi]

I have some questions on timelapses, timelapse systems and cameras (super16mm).

We're doing some timelapses for my documentary (I am the writer/director) with super 16mm (my DP will shoot them, not me) and the film speeds that we have to shoot are about 1frame/second to 1frame/2minutes and the exposure times might be as low as 4second/frame. I am not a DP myself and I'm also not so familiar with filmcameras, but I want to know some basics to be able to have a say when I'm discussing about the budjet with the producer. I'll leave all the film choices and such to the DP.

1. Is there a timelapse system (with time-exposure) as a standart in some of the cameras or is it allways a separate system that you attach to the camera?

2. If the timelapse-system is separate... is there specific information about those in the internet?

3. What do you think, should I go renting or should I try to buy a camera? We have to rent the camera equiptment for about a month and I'm afraid it will push the costs very high... Would it be possible to buy a camera for the project (with the timelapse-system)? I don't want to risk the quality of the footage in any way, because the most expensive cost would be to fly to the other side of the world to do the shoots again, so I don't wanna go eBay and just hope the best. Do you have experiences of similar situation?

4. If you have any idea of a simple motion control -system that I would be able to make really slow pans and tilts with... give me a hint, please. I'm planning of building it myself, because I basically only need a motor to turn the tripod very slowly (about 30 degrees in an hour) and I only need it for 2 shoots. Any comments or ideas?

Thanks...

[andyblaa]

This link might be semi-useful:
http://www.soc.org/opcam/09_fw9697/mg09_timelps.html

I found it when I was looking into doing some timelapse for an advert I'm directing. There's some pretty good information on there. I'm sure there's some way you could borrow a camera at a severely discounted rate. The rate cards you see for rental houses are really only for big scale productions who can pay for it. It doesn't really cost them anything to let you borrow it so sometime a token sum is all that's needed as long as you tell them about the project and that it's low budget etc. A friend of mine got Panavision to lend him a Fisher Dolly for free for a weekend to shoot a short film. They can only say yes.

[bigmasi]

Originally posted by andyblaa:
I'm sure there's some way you could borrow a camera at a severely discounted rate. It doesn't really cost them anything to let you borrow it so sometime a token sum is all that's needed as long as you tell them about the project and that it's low budget etc.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not sure if it works that way here in Finland. And I need the camera for a month.

Thanks for the link...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 04, 2004 01:23 PM: Message edited by: bigmasi ]</font>

[Alex]

Super-8 time-lapse and time-exposure features blow away what can be done in 16mm and 35mm.

Of course it will look more spectacular in 16mm or 35mm, but you will be dealing with potential light leak problems and the motors can't stop and start quickly enough to do everything you asked.

Most if not all time-lapse systems in 16mm and 35mm won't go faster than 1/8th of second, which means you can't do crisp time-lapse shots of movement, they will have a motion blur whether you want it or not (unless you are doing a distant shot in wide angle mode with nothing near the camera).

The system ballistics of both 16mm and 35mm make shooting time-lapse and time-exposure an actual skill with specialists who have gone through all the pitfalls.

If you can't contact an actual DP who specializes in what you want to do, get a Super-8 camera, buy it for a hundred bucks, and have fun.

[bigmasi]

Originally posted by Alex:
Of course it will look more spectacular in 16mm or 35mm, but you will be dealing with potential light leak problems and the motors can't stop and start quickly enough to do everything you asked.

If you can't contact an actual DP who specializes in what you want to do, get a Super-8 camera, buy it for a hundred bucks, and have fun.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for the advice, but have you ever tried to have a meating in a production company and tell them that you'r gonna go 8mm? It's hard. And I also want to make sure that if this film goes to the theaters later on, I won't have any quality problems because of 8mm. And I also think that the filmstock on super8 does not mach on what I'm trying to do (sunsets and nightshots etc). I am doing important tests with my super8 equiptment though (Canon 814XL-S), but I haven't developed anything yet because it's cheaper if I wait until I have more than 4 cartridges. The whole super8 business here in Argentina (where the film will be shot in future) is really fucked up actually. In Buenos Aires you have only one company (one lonely guy who loves super8mm) that sells and developes 8mm, but they can't get K-40 because Kodak doesn't sell or develope anything related to 8mm in Argentina and the postoffices are private companies that (I guess) are not interested in the "free developing envelope" -idea. It's actually the same price for 16mm and 8mm here. Both on stock and developing. Maybe 8mm is even more expensive here..?

By the way... what did you mean with "motor can't stop and start quickly enough" ...If I'll start to shoot about 1-2 hours before the actual cut, what does the motors starting speed has to do with anything?

Originally posted by Alex:
Most if not all time-lapse systems in 16mm and 35mm won't go faster than 1/8th of second, which means you can't do crisp time-lapse shots of movement, they will have a motion blur whether you want it or not

The system ballistics of both 16mm and 35mm make shooting time-lapse and time-exposure an actual skill with specialists who have gone through all the pitfalls.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually I think that you are wrong on the exposure speed, but I can't argue because I'm not sure. Anyway my shots are mostly in wideangle and don't need fast exposure. Quite the opposite, I'm going for that "mystic" softness that motion blur will give us. About the light leaks and other timelapse related problems... I think we can manage those because our shots are really not that difficult, lot's of time and easy locations (except one mountain shot *lol*). I read from the internet that Arri cameras have problems with light leaks?? Anyone to confirm that? Well, I guess I'll leave these problems to the DP. I think the DP I have in mind, does not have so much experience in timelapse photography, but he's very good on shooting video also and the film is to be shoot on both, 16mm and digibeta, so he's a good choice in that sense... (I don't want to use separate DP for different parts of the film)

Thanks for your thougths...

[bigmasi]

Originally posted by Nigel:
The intervolometers that one can use with a 16/35 allow for far more than any Super8 could hope to do.

They are not that complicated as long as you can dial in the frame/time wheel you will be set.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I read some more on the internet and I agree... I know now that the intervalometers are way more advanced than I thought they would be. Knowing this also gives me new ideas for the script and the shooting and for the budget also. Muy Bueno! But I also read some stuff about lightleaks and so on... there is a lot of things about timelapses that I didn't even think were possible. Lot of problems and issues, but said that... the problems are there only for dealing with. Nothing really impossible or really difficult. Basically they are the same kind of issues that you have to deal in "normal" cinematografia anyway. I don't think there's nothing that experienced DO couldn't handle when given some etime to look into it before the shooting.

I think I'll go for rental equiptment and the DO can deside what will it be. If the budget doesn't allow something then we'll just have get more money. I'm willing to invest quite a lot of money on the timelapse shoots because they really are the thing that makes this movie work (...if something is). What I learned is that the timelapse motor shouldn't be a big cost. The camera is the big cost, but I think I'll probably be able to get the motor for free when renting a camera for a month. The digibeta is for the interviews etc. because it's so much easier than film when you have to be quick setting up your gear...

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 10, 2004 06:57 PM: Message edited by: bigmasi ]</font>

[Nigel]

To say that Super8 cameras have better time lapse than 16/35 is a load of shit.

The intervolometers that one can use with a 16/35 allow for far more than any Super8 could hope to do. Todays timelapse motors for 16/35 can take you from 1 frame per day to full speed with a smooth ramp that would blow you away. As for need a special timelapse shooter in order to run them is bull as well. They are not that complicated as long as you can dial in the frame/time wheel you will be set.

For a S16 timelapse I would go to rental houses in you area and see what they have and if they will be willing to work with you over the time that you need it. Media-Logic makes some great controls depending on the camera. It could also be as simple as a converted Bolex and a cheap intervolometer.

I know the Ikonoskop A-Cam has some stuff built in so you should take a look at who rents one of those in your area.

Good Luck

[Alex]

Nigel, there is no comparison between the ease of use Super-8 cameras provide for doing time-lapse & time-exposure versus 16mm or 35mm.

I read the forums on time-lapse and 16mm and 35mm and there are all kinds of problems, especially if you don't own your own camera rig.

And I did preface my comments by saying that if one is using someone who has already done time-lapse with their 16mm or 35mm set-up they can save the beginner needless heartache and light damaged film.

As I have read on the internet, various external motors that attach to 16mm and 35mm cameras don't allow for the shutter to move faster than 1/8 of a second for progressive time-lapse. I'm not sure about long intervals between frames.

Obviously someone does time-lapse and time-exposure on 16mm and 35mm because we've all seen it, but for someone starting out I strongly recommend hiring an experienced DP with their own time-lapse package for the first day or two. Be upfront and tell them you can't afford their services for the whole shoot but want to pay for a few days and the knowledge that will be gained.

Heck, they could even end up renting their camera package to you.

[Nigel]

Alex--

I think it is time for you to just stay quiet. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

You have read something on the internet--You are not an expert. Have you ever used an intervolometer from Media-Logic or CinemaElectronics?? Have you ever used any sort of aftermarket speed control??

The shutter speeds depend on the camera and intervolometer combined. You can set the camera to do all sorts of things from frame bursts every 100 hours to long exposures. This 1/8th of a second got pulled from the ether as far as I am concerned. You are not a DP and you don't know what you speak of.

The fact is that what you can do with a 16/35 camera is only limited to you imagination--Unlike your 1014XLS.

BigMasi--Go and talk with the rental houses near you and they will be able to set you up with an S16 camera that can do everything you need and more.

Good Luck

[Alex]

Nonetheless, your experience with the various Super-8 camera's and their capabilities is clearly limited since you mentioned a Canon 814XLS or 1014XLS as being the be all do all time-lapse camera when it does not even come close to representing the time-lapse features found on other Super-8 Cameras.

Cleary big masi would benefit from owning a Super-8 time-lapse time-exposure camera because they would learn a lot in a little bit of time and could better communicate with their DP.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 11, 2004 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]</font>