Dissapointed

**XNavyDrummer** · May 14th, 2005, 03:30 AM

DSOP,

The Vic:

http://www.thevicforjazz.com/index.html

Peter Erskine is scheduled to play there on the 26th.

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 14th, 2005, 03:51 AM

Thing is, guys like Henderson, Holdsoworth, Connors, & Gambale can all play over jazz changes [melodically/enharmonically AWA rhythmically], & then some, yet they are not in any sense of the term "bop" or trad jazz players at all...they are more of a contempo hybrid jazz-fuaion thingamajiggy...yet they can still handle the changes, & understand song form/arrangement/structure, AWA the theory...but that doesn't make them any less viable as an art form to me; if anything, it is fresh, unique, & diff...oh, wait, you guys already got it long ago. ;cp

Henry - true, that...
...And you can bet your arse Gary H knows the difference between trad bop jazz & mod contempo, too... /;c) He's just not equivocating the term "jazz" with one particular era or style of playing, even though he knows where the Roots are [& come from]...he's a Big Picture guy...[being so presumptuous as to speak for him, but judging from his posts, that is some of the essence of what i "got"]...

I think we should categorically define what STYLE of genre we are referring to, since some may get hung on the meaning of a term or the termonology; as "be-bop" is not contempo jazz-fusion; j-fusion was BORN & naturally evolved out of be-bop & other styles melded together in the big ethnic & style cauldron...[Carl Sagan I ain't]...oh, wait, you guys already got it long ago...

Flam - that is 2[against 3] much, man... You've now officially joined the Ranks of Pranks[ters] here at HB, such as mat, 5/8, & assorted others [I guess I'm in there AW [:cO]... LOL um...has Holdsworth or Gambale been endicted yet? /;cp

Funny thing is, I think I actually understood Shreck's "stream of consciousness" again... [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]confused.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/idea.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

The Vic:
http://www.thevicforjazz.com/index.html
Peter Erskine is scheduled to play there on the 26th.

NOW you're talkin' the "language" - & all that other 'Jazz!' /;c)

sequence of a 5/4 groove over 7 in triplet feel

That's the new Xtina/Pink/MadOnna collaboration tune coming out...man, are those teeny-BOPS gonna be ho-tango-dancin' their butts off to that one...can't wait to see it on Soulut Trane...

[ May 13, 2005 01:30 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]

**DeSeipel** · May 14th, 2005, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Henry II:
I don't think I'm a jazz snob in the respect that I think jazz is better or more noble than other forms of pop music.
[ May 13, 2005 12:43 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ][/QB]

I find it interesting that you chose the word 'noble' in the way you describe jazz; as if it came from some superior source. I'll agree jazz is one of the more difficult types of music to play,but I disagree with using or associating "nobility" with any music or artform. I feel this is a dangerous mindset to take on any music or artform. Elevating such things to that level can and (I feel) will lead to thinking that other types of music are somehow inferior. It might even result in persons being offended when drummers who aren't jazz/bop players attempt to play this noble music.

This mindset, thinking that jazz or whatever type of music is somehow better or more noble, ..I believe this is a defense mechanism for the reality that jazz, like many other artforms, is dying or is a dead form of communication. This mindset is also interesting because things usually associated as 'noble' or superior aren't usually 'underground'. What I mean by underground is that jazz/bop players aren't exactly on the radar, you must seek them out and struggle to find this music. I realize that some may disagree with me describing jazz/bop as underground, but only becuase it's not underground to them, that's their reality and it's readily accessible to them.

I don't discount that jazz is hard, but what I do disagree with, is the mindset that jazz is a noble music. I also understand that these are opinions and here's mine: equating jazz with nobility is dangerously close to being a jazz snob, and if I'm reading too much into this, I apologize. I like to hear some thoughts on why jazz is better or more noble than other music, that will help me understand your point of view.

**Derek DeFields** · May 14th, 2005, 04:51 PM

I thought Henry was saying he does NOT think that.

**got_a_matchgrip** · May 14th, 2005, 05:06 PM

I hear ya, DS.

I believe this is a defense mechanism for the reality that jazz, like many other artforms, is dying or is a dead form of communication.

"Jazz isn't dead; it just smells funny"...

No, but seriously - I don't think jazz is a dead artform, nor will it ever be. True artforms such as jazz can never truly die out. Besides, they are too good an artform to do so, & there are a good # of folk keeping it alive & well enough to "survive." It's just tht it's not immensely popular as compared to the other forms such as pop, rap, & rock...because we are so inundated w pop radio & "numbers" music & muzak, & the lack of proper public music education [THIS is the real threat of "dying" out!], it's harder for the masses to "hear" the rhythm & melodies of jazz. Most of the "western-world" masses are subliminally force-fed simpler repetitive melodies & rhythms since birth, & we are not nec taught to hear other musical artforms & genres/styles; whereas to hear jazz one must hear the swing pulse, & be listening sometimes for more constantly changing chordal/melodic/enharmonic structure. It can be both simple & highly involved, & sometimes both at the same time.

As was classical, it takes more understanding to listen to it, as it can be more involved [jazz prob moreso than classical], hence it became equated with the "upper class & learned" musical artform - even tho it wasn't born out of that at all! Isn't it funny, that jazz, born out of angst, blues, & a precursor of soul [orig a "poor man's" artform] has somehow been elevated to "upper learning" status? Funny. I think the Vinnie's & Weckl's [modern guys'] playing have actually helped that premise along... ;c)

Remember, big band was the pop music of that time, & more people understood & appreciated it. I DO believe that there has been a "dumbing down" effect of sorts occuring via popular music over the years til present, to some degree; but it's not a good thing IF it's at the expense of other genres...marketing numbers & dollars suits' focus does't help this cause & effect necessarily...

It takes more learning & understandig to hear & play jazz, like you said, but i also agree w what you said that there's a problem in taking oneself a little TOO seriously. There's usually a fine line between pride in one's art/career/talent/business, & going too far out...as witnessed in daily life, everday. After all, it's just music - a dichotomy & opposite pole all at the same time - both great & incredible, & yet it's not major surgery/world peace/nobel peace prize/healing the blind, deaf, & sick [well, maybe sometimes it helps do that, when handled properly ;c)]

Are we over-analyzing this thing, or...? [img]wink.gif[/img]

Miles would prob just say, "AW h*ll, just sit down, shut up, & play [your arse off], for Pete [Ersko]'s sake!"...or, just "let the music do the talkin'!"

...I know that's what El, Philly, Deej, Art, Max, Haynes, Buddy, Blade, Stewart, Foster, Hamilton, Lewis, Ersk, Husband, Wackerman, Vinnie, Weckl, Kennedy, Marottas, TBoz, Bonzo, Jeff, Vega, Joe Hend, Garner, Hubbard, Breckers, Marienthal, Manieri, Zawinul, Tyner, Hancock, Chick, Jarrett, Kirkland, Camilo, Rubalcaba, Perez, Carter, Gomez, Jaco, Berlin, Bailey, Daryl Jones, Tooch, Willis, Fierabracci, Pope, DiOrio, Pass, Martino, Benson, Metheny, DiMeola, McLaughlin, Holdsorth, Henderson, Connors, & Gambale did/do... [img]cool.gif[/img]

I think i missed a bunch... [img]graemlins/sure.gif[/img] /;cp

[How's this for a new topic..."why the 'missus' & I are growing distant]... /:c[ [img]eek.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

[ May 15, 2005 01:51 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]

**Henry II** · May 14th, 2005, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Derek DeFields:
I thought Henry was saying he does NOT think that.

I thought that's what I said too.

[img]confused.gif[/img]

**DeSeipel** · May 14th, 2005, 10:01 PM

Please accept my apology, it must have been the way it was worded or the way in which I read it that caused my confusion.

And maybe I went overboard by saying jazz is dead or dying. In retrospect, it's evolving.

**Groovesmitty** · May 14th, 2005, 11:16 PM

I feel honored to have initiated this topic. This quite the debate. Or lack there of.
Friends, the language of jazz cannot be taught in a forum. Mechanic, you sound like an the worst case of alpha male syndrome when you say you want to hear us play. Us meaning the individuals who are true to the music of jazz. That's plain silly. I know jazz critics who don't play a note, yet know far more about the jazz language than anyone in this forum.

I feel as if the topic is over, due to lack of understanding and knowledge on the part of MOST contributors.

Jazz is the type of music where a foundation in needed to expand. Once you're rooted, you can expand, the universe is your limit. For example, Jack, Joey Baron, Bill Stewart, Gerry Hemingway. Vinnie Colaiuta regardless of what is being said, is not rooted. It's obvious to me, it's obvious to the legends of the music. along with the critics of the music. There are many more who aren't rooted and yet are great drummers. If it's not obvious to you, then more listening must be done your part. I hate to say that, but judging from all the reading, I can't say anything else.

By jazz, I mean being rooted in the swing tradition, not what came out of the swing tradition. That's a whole different style. Dave Weckl is not a jazz musician, Vinnie Colaiuta is not a jazz musician, Tom Brechtline is not a jazz musician, Gregg Bissonette IS rooted in jazz, Gary Novack IS rooted in jazz, Steve Smith IS rooted in jazz Peter Erskine IS rooted in jazz. These are the fusion drummers that I know to be rooted in the tradition's of swing. Steve Houghton as well. I'm sure there many more.

This is my last post on the topic. We need Erskine's point of view on the traditions and having them as a foundation to expand on. For many of you he seems to be the bridge between jazz and rock. And I agree. To me and the many other musicians who really play the music, it's very important. Know the language of the style you're playing, be it jazz, latin, rock, anything. Jazz is it's own language. To people that understand it, it's obvious when a player knows it and is building on it. It's also obvious when they are not.

**Henry II** · May 15th, 2005, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by D.Seipel:
Please accept my apology, it must have been the way it was worded or the way in which I read it that caused my confusion.

And maybe I went overboard by saying jazz is dead or dying. In retrospect, it's evolving.

No biggie. I don't take any of this too personally. I happen to be a player and lover of traditional jazz. That doesn't mean that that's all I play or listen to. It doesn't mean that I think pure jazz is better than the jazz fusions or other styles of music. But, I maintain that jazz is what it is. I grew up listening to it, I know it when I hear it. That's all.

**zmorton** · May 15th, 2005, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by Groovesmitty:By jazz, I mean being rooted in the swing tradition, not what came out of the swing tradition. That's a whole different style.

This could have made the overall discussion much clearer. Not to further the debate but if that is your definition of Jazz then yes, Vinnie isn't a Jazz musician. The really interesting about Vinnie is trying to figure out what exactly is he rooted in? He does so much so well it's hard to say.

I think many players here look beyond what "style" any particular player uses and look at the spirit and attitude in which a player plays. If they play with the spirit of what Jazz encompasses; exploration, fusion of styles, improvisation, etc... (my interpretation btw) then that player is a Jazz musician.

So what have we come to? Seems to be a semantic debate more than anything. As Gary said we'll just let the music do the talking; and quite honestly that probably is the single best thing said in the whole thread.

The topic was great though, got everyone thinking and some good discussion going and as a Jazz student it's great to hear everyone's opinions on the topic.

Thread: Dissapointed

Thread Tools

Display

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions