question

[heartberry]

Yeah, I was just wondering, what do you people like about shonen ai and yaoi manga? Why do you like it, and think others like it? It's just something I was wondering, because a lot of people seem to like it(at least the people on this message board), and I just want to know your reasons, etc. I just like to know how people think, why they like things, why other things and stuff, so that is why I asked this question.

[Risu-chan]

well... for me it's a story and relationship structure that you just plain don't get either in English or in most manga. And one of the reasons for that is the complete inability of most forms of literature to handle a strong female character who is NOT a tomboy. I mean, there's Utena/Sailor Uranus, and then there's a bunch of people whose defining characteristics in a show are that they're "the cute girl" or "the smart girl" or "the sweet girl" or et cetera.

Count Cain and Yami no Matsuei literally could not have been written with female leads. Nobody would have printed them if they had. In Cain's case, it's because the society of the time wouldn't have permitted a woman that much power. In Yami no Matsuei's case, it's because if Tsuzuki was a girl, he'd have been Sailor Moon (always eating and whining but good-hearted and inexplicably powerful when it comes right down to it), and MY GOD is that a horrible image to contemplate. ^^;;;;

Neither the Japanese nor the Americans nor any other culture I know of has actually got a way of handling female characters as "normal." Look at everything from Star Trek to Power Rangers, which is storytelling at its most iconic -- the "normal" state of being in storytelling is to be a man, and the female characters' distinguishing characteristics are largely summed up by the fact that they ARE female. Often dressed in pink and/or miniskirts just to push the point home that this is what distinguishes them from the others.

In shonen-ai series, you can have boys who sometimes act like girls or think like girls or look like girls, but they AREN'T girls. And that fact alone is enough to make them hold a different power-place in the story structure. So you get to explore different relationship dynamics, between two people who are starting out on a more nearly socially-equal footing, and that kind of starting-place does not exist in a hetero story.

It's too bad that it doesn't exist, but it doesn't... and so in its absence, a shonen-ai story about the balancing of power in relationships tells stories that can't be told because when you get right down to it, male-female relationships all go either "the man's on top/in charge" or "the woman's a horrible shrew and needs taking down a peg".

(Plus in my particular case it doesn't hurt that I've always been more attracted to people who are androgynous than people who are too aggressively male or female... neither Arnold Schwarzenegger or Christina Aguilera does anything for me, but Winona Ryder and Johnny Depp and Laurence Olivier's Hamlet is another story... ^_~)

[Shia]

adding to Risu-chans post, for me it would be really.. well.. strange to read a story where (for example Count Cain) a female charakter went trough all those dark, traumatic, angsty past things like beeing violated and almost killed by a parent or stuff like that (well, I don't know if such things happen in other manga genres, I usually only read shounen ai/yaoi)
or things like what happened to YnM's Hisoka...
It sounds kinda silly if I say that but if such things happen to a boy it's "oh, the poor angsty boy" but if such a thing would happen to a girl.. well, for me it would be kinda sick to read.
(writing that I notice that that's one hell of a weird attitude I have...)
(and I don't even want to *start* to imagine what CC would be like if Riff were female [img]eek.gif[/img] )

I've been thinking about the whole "what attracts women to the whole shounen ai stuff" for quite a while now, specially cause I'm writing short silly, low quality fiction myself and almost all of it is boyxboy... but if I'd simply replace one of them with a female charakter, something about the, uhm.. power balance between the two of them would be really messed up (am I making any sense?) and the whole story would be weird and in some way *wrong*.

well, just my not very helpful opinion on that topic ^^;;

[tenjou_sama]

::starts to reply then realizes Risu-chan pretty much summed it up:: XD

Speaking of Power Rangers, I saw it on the FOX tv station recently and could that show get any cheesier? Now they're some kind of ninjas and their 'sensei' (Oh how I wish I was making this up) is this horrible CGI rendered guinea pig....Who the hell writes this crap!? But...I digress

I like reading, whether its books or manga (US comics aren't really my schtick...too much spandex and large breasts/pectoral muscles for me XD)and the images just add to the story. Now I could spout on about how I like yaoi/shounen ai for nice plot lines and well developed characters (er, at least I've found this in the yaoi I've read), but I also like it for superficial and shallow reasons as well. Pretty boys! Me like lots! [img]cool.gif[/img] Anyways that's just my thoughts. [img]wink.gif[/img]

[Anime Goddess]

Ya I would have to agree with Carole Ann, Shia and Risu-chan. That is basically why I like it. Okay this is going to sound a little love sappy but oh well it is just my thought on it ^^;;; I know a lot of my friends like the love between the two characters..if you guys know what I mean..For ex Bronze/Zetsuai..now I don't know if you could actually call that love sappy but it does have Romance in it LOL[wait is there a difference between the two LOL].
But I like Yaoi and I guess I like some mangas that have some romance to them....Oh boy did I just say that??!! But I don't like the really romancey[sp] ones..I figure it just ruins the whole story. That is why I like Yaoi ^^ Especially all those Preety sexy guys *goes off and day dreams*
Okay back...But anyways basically I will read any Yaoi/Shounen-ai Manga as long as it catches my attention and I like the story plot ect.
I hope I made sense and sorry if this was already posted ^^;; I just skimmed through the posts..sorry about that ^^

[Reikou Hitakana]

Whats to say that hasn't already been said lol [img]tongue.gif[/img]
I suppose though for me it also sometimes has personal meaning for me. Especially when it coes down to a character struggling with their sexuality. The latest example I suppose would be Izumi (not blue boy's Izumi, the other one) from Love Mode. Beyond that you get a depth of story that just isn't present in a lot of manga/comics. I mean as I've said many times, the kind of crap that is really popular here in america is junk like DBZ. A lot of the time shounen ai has a VERY solid story. Now granted that's not to say there's no PWP (plot? what plot?) out there. But even that's better than adrenaline pumped crap [img]tongue.gif[/img] Also, a lot of times the art is very beautiful which can sometimes be a selling point for me. If i can't stand looking at it, there's no way I'd read/watch it. I guess that's really what it comes down to for me. And of course everything said above inb other people's posts holds true for me, especially Risu chan's essay [img]tongue.gif[/img]

-Reikou

<font color="#660033" size="1">[ April 15, 2003 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Reikou Hitakana ]</font>

[crisisdreams]

Hehe...all right, like all the others said already 5 x, I agree with what everyone up there *point* said.

I especially agree with Risu-chan's point on female characters being so stereotypical. Every manga I pick up, the lead female character usually fits into the "cute, slightly annoying but very nice, full of love for everyone" stereotype (think Sailormoon, Fushigi Yuugi, Ayashi no Ceres, etc.). It's very very hard for me to associate with any of these characters, or to even stand them. (How many times have I wanted to smack the Fushigi Yuugi girl? I can't even remember. [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) In shonen-ai/yaoi though, the characters tend to be more flexible in personality. Plus, a lot of them tend to have that manly pride, so there's never a character who *always* needs to be saved 24/7.

I've read on a lot of other websites that girls like shonen-ai because there's no "competition" in the story (ie: the main girl who gets all the boys)...hmmm...I really don't feel that though, and I'm sure the male readers don't edither. Oh well.

Oh, and to sum it all up with a short statement...if you like pretty boys, isn't it much better to see two pretty boys together than a pretty boy and a pretty girl? Superficial and shallow...definitely. But also definitely the truth. ~.^

Risu-chan: You kidding me! I love those actors as well. ^^ Especially Johnny Depp......and when he and Winona Ryder were in "Edward Scissorhands". *sniff* Love that movie...

[rev.tsukiyama]

I think there are good female characters out there in mangas like MPD psycho etc, but they're not the lead charas. I just cant identify with female fictional characters in manga, on tv or whatever.

I read BL manga because I like the high levels of emotion in it. BL men are idealised, female versions of men, and I like that.

Oddly, I can read totally filthy mxm, but het really freaks me out. I dont like the idea of men and women together. Dunno why. I'm bisexual, but I dont really like yuri, I suppose because it's mainly aimed at men and the women aren't believable enough, though that kinda contradicts what i just said about idealised yaoi men. Hmm...

I have a theory, that because the media and popculture in general is controlled by men, it also 'speaks to the subconscuous of the viewer' in a masculine voice, if that makes sense. All of us subject to it, therefore, are brought up with this strong masculine influnce on our thinking patterns, even women. Men and women /are/ different, we think differently and I think, overall, the world has become dominalted by the male way. Perhaps, that's why women are loath to identify with the incomplete, unbelievable female characters generated in a world where the fundamental female influence is marginalised. As Risu says, in 'shoune ai' mangas, the boys can be /like/ girls, but the fact they are boys gives them greater potential depth and status.

It's also a fact that the majority of us with the xx chromasomes prefer /pretty/ things. We want our men to be pretty too. Men, on the other hand want themselves to be something else, something I'm not really qualified to guess about. Men seem to have an idea of what a sexy woman looks like, probably a playboy centrefold. But most women themselves would probably rather look quite different. Same with men, I think. We want girlyboys, but men arent really like that.

Okay, I'm just rambling on now...thanks for letting me get that off my chest, though.

<font color="#660033" size="1">[ April 16, 2003 08:07 AM: Message edited by: tsukiyama saunt ]</font>

[Reikou Hitakana]

Don't even get me started on Fushigi Yuugi [img]tongue.gif[/img] I could rant for hours on how much I HATE Yu Watase [img]tongue.gif[/img]

-Reikou

[hyaku]

Yeah, I think this has been covered earlier but, one of the main things is the equality of social status amoung characters in a mxm story or even a fxf story for that matter. I don't know if I'm making any sense but . . . in ancient Rome, or maybe it was Greece, they thought love betweem two men was the best of course they were rather mysogenestic(sp? against woman). Oh, and guys, please don't knock American comics completely until you've read some of the less main stream stuff like Jhonen Vasquez or especially Neil Gaiman's Sandman series . . . for some reason the Death character in that is the female I most strongly identify with in any comic/manga.
Oh, well, sorry for the rambling . . .

<font color="#660033" size="1">[ April 16, 2003 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Miro ]</font>