Grading Shapiro

[Ytown Tribe fan]

DId you attend any games in the '70s or '80s? Lots of times you could go up an hour before game time and get good seats -- there'd be 5000 or so fans on hand.

Were they "anti-fans"?

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Proudly stating the obvious for over 40 years!

[*TR]

Comments in bold on the originaal post in this thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edwardo:
Let's grade Mark's moves:

1. Bradley trade: A-
The kid looks good, and may be a star by 2004. Day is a little better than Drew.
This was a Hart trade, not Shapiro. No grade.

2. Alomar trade: B-
The Escobar injury pushes this move down, but it can easily be upgraded when Escobar comes back and wins a job, and/or if Traber can take over for Finley and stay healthy.
Injured Escobar or not, Shapiro did not get enough for HOF 2b still in prime. Then he has to spend too much to get mediocre replacement 2b in Guttierez. Grade D

3. Ricky G. signing: C
There wasn't a lot available here, so Shapiro just took what he could get. If we get the Ricky of spring training, it goes up to a B.
Too much for too little. Grade D

4. Wohlers signing: D-
This guy may find it, but it better be soon. He looks awful. Why so much money for a suspect?
Two year guaranteed contract for guy nobody was hot for. Terrible sign. Didn't even need another RH relief pitcher. Grade F

5. 2001 draft: A
Shapiro ran this draft, and scored big with Martin, Denham, and Foley. How often does a 17 year-old in the Appalacian League make national news? And, he's not even the best one.
Why draft Alan Horne if you're not going to sign him? Tribe should of been aware of his contract demands before picking him. Wasted one 1st round pick. Love Martin, Denham great potential, but always risky drafting high school pitchers. Why did we pick 3 in 1st round? Should have picked at least one position player in 1st round and shouldn't have picked Horne. Opportunity lost. Grade C+

6. Manager: A-
No way does Wickman or Thome stay if Charlie was fired. The Tribe isn't going to win the Series this year, so, what the hell.
Charlie does do a great job with the young players. And, if the team misses the playoffs, Shapiro can then usher in the Eddie Murray Era without pissing off the players.
Thome had no option to leave. Wickman would have stayed for any manager as long as Rocker was gone and the $$ were right. Keeping Charlie to be Shapiro's first scapegoat is wise for Shapiro but bad for the team. Charlie fired by August. Shapiro took the easy way keeping Charlie. They had to pay him anyway. Grade C-.

Overall, I give Shapiro a B for his work. He's in a very tough spot here, trying to re-build and still compete at the same time, and reduce budget. Hart drained the system of young hitters, and caused some bad drafts. I can think of a lot worse GMs to have here.
Hart left the cupboard bare of young postion players and a bloated payroll. But Shapiro has done nothing of note to make this team better or cheaper. The small decrease in payroll is disproportional to the talent lost. Acquiring Lawton, Guttierez, Brady Anderson, Mark Wohlers has done nothing to make this team younger or better. Shapiro acquired a underachieving top prospect (Escobar) whom the Mets had tired of waiting for him too develop. He grabbed a promising LH starter (Traber) with a time bomb in his elbow (partially torn ligament).
All Shapiro has excelled at so far is making this team 'different' and promoting his brand of 'spin' on why it needs to be so.
Young promising pitchers on this team were from the Hart regime yet Shapiro would let us think he is responsible for them. It will be awhile before the results are in but things look ominous. Grade D.
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[This message has been edited by *TR (edited March 20, 2002).]

[srg]

The Bradley trade was considered Shapiros first trade even though it was on Harts watch, Neil Huntington also had a hand in the deal since he scouted Bradley when he worked with the Expos.

On Alan Horne, He gave no indications anywhere before the draft that he was going to demand 2 million Dollars that Dan Denham got, on the contrary, he wanted to sign but his parents sought the advice of an agent wich caused the negotiations to go haywire. Horne who was thought to be a top 5 pick slid until the 27th pick b/c a drop in velocity. The Indians can't be blamed on this one.

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[Edwardo]

Wickman said there was no way he was coming back if Charlie was fired. If Thome signs, it'll be because Charlie is still here.

One thing I didn't grade Shapiro on was his hirings. Eddie Murray was a great move, as was promoting Mike Brown. These guys command big-time respect from the players, and know what they're talking about, in contrast to Pole and Jones. Mark gets an "A" here.

Initially, I thought the Tribe should've gotten more for Alomar, but nobody was offering more. Robbie is not in his prime, but rather the end of his prime. It was the right time to trade him. Lawton will put up similar numbers in this line-up, Riggan will be key, Traber will be a very good starter, with no real reason to think his arm is going to fall off. He pitched all last year with no harm. Escobar is the icing on the cake.


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[viper123]

TR I think you might have been a little harsh. I'm not a fan of the alomar trade but there is no way that Escobar's injury could be predicted. Your other comment about the Mets giving up on him. Give me a break the guy is 23, he hasn't even touched his peak and mind you was on fire this spring. Escobar will be a good major leaguer.

Point 2: What's the beef with Charlie?? The guy has done nothing but win. This is a proving year for Charlie and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. The players like him, the coaches like him and the players want to win for him, I don't get it what's not to like. he has he specifically lost a game for us??

I agree however on the signing of Wohlers and Guitterez. Nobody else was interested and we jumped the gun and overpaid. He is however letting some of the younger players to get some time in. Russell Branyan, David Riske, and Ryan Drese to name a few. He also did the smart thing and signed CC to an extended contract because of those good moves I give him a C, I think once Escobar is healthy again this grade will move up


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viper

[srg]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *TR:


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TR you are wrong on Horne as you were with Baez's velocity before he was signed. Alan Horne's drop in stock was because of his lower back problem wich set him back at OLE Miss and his late spring drop in velocity (2001) Horne's parents sought the advice of an agent after he was drafted not before. As For Milton Bradley, Shapiro gets credit for that deal whether you believe it or not.



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[Edwardo]

Hart said that it was Shapiro's call on Bradley. Too bad he didn't have the say on the Rocker deal.

I have my problems with Charlie's managing, but I like the way he works with the young players. He's the right guy for this team.

As for Eddie, please consult the ST stats. Omar hitting .356 with 12 RBI? Branyan at .270 with THREE strikeouts? Something good is happening here. It's not about his personality, it's what he has to offer in the way of instruction, and how he gets it across.

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[thinker]

MANUEL HAS NOT LOST A GAME PERSONALLY?wow!who pitched nagy 3 times at the end of a crucial season?once ok,twice maybe, but not 3 times.we lost out on play-offs by 1(one)game.with the team he had given to him he should have won(minimum)98-104 games.

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[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by srg:
The Bradley trade was considered Shapiros first trade even though it was on Harts watch, Neil Huntington also had a hand in the deal since he scouted Bradley when he worked with the Expos.

Sorry. No way Shapiro gets credit for this one. This is a Hart transaction all the way to its origin in trading Justice. Bradley was Hart's call 100%.

Horne who was thought to be a top 5 pick slid until the 27th pick b/c a drop in velocity. The Indians can't be blamed on this one.

To the contrary, signability was exactly why Horne was still on the board at 27. The Tribe knew he was going to be a tough sign. Don't try to revise history...unless you're a Shapiro spin doctor.

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[*TR]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Edwardo:
Wickman said there was no way he was coming back if Charlie was fired.

No way?? I doubt Wickman ever said that. He likes Charlie but it still comes down to no Rocker and $$$.

If Thome signs, it'll be because Charlie is still here.

This one is almost preposterous. Charlie's status (and he'll probably be gone by the end of the year} will not effect Thome's negotiations one iota. Thome will be influenced by $$ and years and his stated desire to play an entire career with the Clevland Indians.

One thing I didn't grade Shapiro on was his hirings. Eddie Murray was a great move, as was promoting Mike Brown. These guys command big-time respect from the players, and know what they're talking about, in contrast to Pole and Jones. Mark gets an "A" here.

No argument on Mike Brown. Good hire. Murray has the markings of a good hire but it is way too early to judge. All the spin about Murray being this great clubhouse guy may be overrated. As a player he was traded from the LA Dodgers after one season with the reputation for being disruptive in the clubhouse and being a bad influence on the younger players. He also is the guy who refused to play any 1b because he thought Hart lowballed him on salary and he was only getting enough to be expected to DH. Murray may be great but this one we will need some results before praise.

Initially, I thought the Tribe should've gotten more for Alomar, but nobody was offering more. Robbie is not in his prime, but rather the end of his prime. It was the right time to trade him. Lawton will put up similar numbers in this line-up, Riggan will be key, Traber will be a very good starter, with no real reason to think his arm is going to fall off. He pitched all last year with no harm. Escobar is the icing on the cake.

Escobar wasn't icing, he was the meat of the trade. Without Escobar Shapiro never makes the deal.
Riggans is nothing special. He's 27 and barely has a full season of major league time. The Mets gave him up easily. He comes under the category replacable part. No reason to be concerned about Traber's arm? Well, well respected NY Orthopedic surgeons disagree. His partially torn elbow ligament is an inevitability rather than a probability for sugery some day. 1, 2, 3, 5 years? Who knows? But it is a lurking problem.
Nobody was offering more? You must be privy to information I don't have. Many baseball execs were surprised when the Alomar deal came down. They didn't even know there was talk.


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[This message has been edited by *TR (edited March 20, 2002).]