I just want to gloat. : )

[GM]

Vott Mentioned I should check into possibly tuning the cabinets....

Short of a major re-work to open up the internal shelf or replace it with bracing, tuning a DBR empirically would be a tedious task plus it's probably pretty well tuned already, so just needs to be driven with a period correct high output impedance amp or EQ'd if SS driven to mimic its smiley face EQ.

GM

[voice of the theater]

Are you sure this isn't a Heathkit as is or an Altec custom done by Barzilay? I mean it looks too professional/extensive to be a re-work of a 101, plus (and it's a big plus to me) it's a double bass reflex (DBR) tuning which was virtually unknown (and still is to great extent) at the time except in professional circles and serious DIYers that read a variety of audio magazines.

For sure, it's the first I've seen from back then beyond its inventor George Augsberger's early '60s JBL cab. There's software to design them now, but back then it was strictly empirically tuned, at least at the DIY level.

GM

I don't have the knowledge and/or experience that some of the board members here have but I can say that externally, the cabinets look to be identical to the pair of Heathkit AS 101's that I used to own and sold this past summer (other than the grill cloth). As far as them being Heathits "as is", I've never heard of a Heathkit speaker that looks like the AS 101 that housed Altec Duplex drivers--only the 416/811b/806 combo in that particular cabinet (as far as I know). That doesn't mean that Heathkit never made them, but I've never heard of them and just did several web searches for "Heathkit Altec Duplex" and nothing came up. As far as them being Barzilay (Altec custom), if they are, then externally they are copies of the Heathkit AS 101's. Would Barzilay have copied another manufacturers outside appearance? I have no idea. The AS 101's do not have the shelves inside, so I thought that those were probably mods done by whoever put the duplexes in the cabs....

[GM]

I've never heard of a Heathkit speaker that looks like the AS 101 that housed Altec Duplex drivers--only the 416/811b/806 combo in that particular cabinet (as far as I know).

As far as them being Barzilay (Altec custom), if they are, then externally they are copies of the Heathkit AS 101's. Would Barzilay have copied another manufacturers outside appearance?

No, if anything, others used theirs as design guides.

I don't recall a duplex loaded Heathkit and my memory of the details of the various furniture styles they offered has all but vanished except for the early '70's contemporary looking one with the lattice grill (the last model offered?), though I recall a Mediterranean style somewhere along the line, but this is such a rare loading scheme in what would be an extensive rework of an existing cab that one has to wonder why a DIYer would bother since for a HIFI app it works well enough as a simple BR.

Combined with getting these from a local theater and you confirming it as externally a factory cab, this strongly implies a Heathkit design, so for now these will remain an enigma with no real vintage value beyond the drivers.

BTW, these apparently have a riser base underneath, so did yours? I don't recall them having one.

cradeldorf:

Is there any stampings or other markings, stickers anywhere on the cab, maybe even behind some insulation or on the bottom?

GM

[cradeldorf]

Under the insulation is the only place I haven't looked, nothing anywhere inside outside or underneath. I can pretty much assure you that nobody has retrofitted these speakers to these cabinets, for one thing If they were originally loaded with a horn on top and a bass on the bottom for them to be in the configuration they are now somebody would have had to flip them and move the veneer to the bottom and all the trim also they show no signs of this happening, they were constructed upside down from the beginning. The risers you are seeing are not part of the speaker their just some black plywood risers with wheels on them so the speakers could be moved easily around the theater. they're not connected to the speakers. The one with the 604E doesn't sound as good as the one with the 604C and the 604E one has the "Lpad" on the back the other one just has a jumper wire for 0 -2 and -4 I wish I knew a damn thing about crossovers but I think I need a custom pair built if you know anybody who does that. Yes I have the Lpad cranked all the way up.

[GM]

Well, as VOTT noted, once the grill was stripped away, the baffle could have either been removed and flopped upside down or a new one fabricated, which brings up something to check........

Can you get a decent measurement of the vent cutout? For the 101's, its horn cutout would have to be at least ~18.75" W x 8.625" H otherwise it's a different baffle.

Yeah, after I posted, it dawned on me they might be dollies, but it never hurts to ask.......

There's enough design differences between the 604C, 604E and their respective XO's that some of what you hear can't easily/cheaply be altered and not being there to listen/fiddle, you're pretty much on your own WRT adjusting the XO's to get the closest match. What you drive them with has a lot to do with how they sound also. This doesn't mean that the 604E doesn't need service though, so having at least it serviced at GPA might be required if you can't get them to place nice by adjusting their XOs and doing basic maintenance any old speaker requires.

Custom XOs requires comprehensive measurements of each speaker otherwise a waste of $$$, but these are old enough that replacing the caps is a good plan.

First thing though is to confirm no corroded wiring/connectors (don't forget those behind the horn driver's rear covers) and clean the 604E's L-pad which is often a major source of poor performance on any old speaker and ideally once dialed in should be replaced with a fixed resistor grid for long term SQ.

GM

[Altec Best]

I have this strange feeling I'm going to become an audiophile now.

Or at the very least an Altec Lansing Fan !

[cradeldorf]

I found on another forum a guy who described how to bypass the Lpad, I was wondering if I might try the same thing? I keep it cranked up all the way anyways... The cutouts are 17 3/4 by no more than 4 inches high. Right now the speakers are being driven by an Optimus STA7500 receiver.

[cradeldorf]

Or at the very least an Altec Lansing Fan !

I've been researching them endlessly since I got them. Yep definitely an Altec Lansing Fan. : )

[voice of the theater]

No, if anything, others used theirs as design guides.

I don't recall a duplex loaded Heathkit and my memory of the details of the various furniture styles they offered has all but vanished except for the early '70's contemporary looking one with the lattice grill (the last model offered?), though I recall a Mediterranean style somewhere along the line, but this is such a rare loading scheme in what would be an extensive rework of an existing cab that one has to wonder why a DIYer would bother since for a HIFI app it works well enough as a simple BR.

Combined with getting these from a local theater and you confirming it as externally a factory cab, this strongly implies a Heathkit design, so for now these will remain an enigma with no real vintage value beyond the drivers.
[/SIZE][/B]GM

Until reading GM's post from Saturday, I had never heard of "double bass reflex tuning" or George Augsburger and had no idea this was that intricate of a design. I would have to agree that we seem to have a real mystery here -- if these do turn out to be modified AS-101's, then why would someone go through all that effort to modify the interior of the cabs using a DBR tuning design when "for a HIFI app it works well enough as a simple BR."

I found on another forum a guy who described how to bypass the Lpad, I was wondering if I might try the same thing? I keep it cranked up all the way anyways... The cutouts are 17 3/4 by no more than 4 inches high. Right now the speakers are being driven by an Optimus STA7500 receiver.

In one of your photos, I could see that the length of the port looks to be close to the right size for an 811b (from your measurements it turns out it's about an inch shorter) but you can't see the height of the port in the photo. Now that you've measured the port cutout as being only 4 inches high, if this is a modified AS-101, then someone must have fabricated a new baffle (as GM suggested as a possibility) because 4 inches is not enough room for an 811B horn. If someone went to all the trouble to build a new baffle (and had the know-how to incorporate DBR tuning), then perhaps these cabs are already appropriately tuned/ported as it seems unlikely that someone would go through the effort to incorporate a DBR design and then randomly decide on 17 3/4" by 4" as the port size.

I would recommend upgrading your Optimus receiver. Vintage Altecs like the ones you bought are very revealing of any weak links in your system (they can reveal lower quality components as sounding poor and can reveal higher quality components as sounding amazing). Even if the Optimus is still operating up to original specs, 604's sound SO much better with better amplification. In the meantime, as a test/experiment, try connecting your right speaker to the left channel of the receiver and your left speaker to the right channel of the receiver to see if reversing your channels has an impact on how the two speakers sound compared to each other. If you do this reversal, and notice that now the difference in sound quality isn't as great or that now the 604E sounds better than the 604C etc., then you know that part of the difference you're hearing is the receiver. Older (and especially) lower quality amps/receivers, can often have or develop problems with the two channels sounding different from each other. Combine that with two speakers/crossovers that have inherent differences, and that can really intensify the problem if you have the better sounding speaker hooked up to the better sounding channel of the receiver...... If there is a difference in the sound quality of your right and left channels of the receiver, upgrading your receiver may make it easier to get the speakers to sound more similar to each other by using the L-Pad adjustment (or bypassing the L Pad with or without a fixed resistor), and by recapping the crossovers (bad caps can really detract from the sound quality), and as GM suggested check all wiring and connectors. Capacitors aren't that expensive-- (Solens, Daytons, etc.) unless you buy boutique caps, so if you have $20 invested in these speakers and you spend a few dollars on capacitors and try all the above suggestions and the 604E still sounds considerably worse than the 604C, you're still way ahead of the game if you end up having to send the 604E to GPA for a recone/remag/check-up and they may charge you a hundred something dollars to make that 604E "sing" again. You still have next to nothing invested in a pair of speakers that with some TLC will hopefully sound amazing soon.....

BTW, can you post a couple of close-up photos of each crossover so that we can be sure if it's the right crossover for each duplex driver?

[cradeldorf]

Thats why it's good to talk to others I never thought about switching channels, and considering the fact that the receiver won't tune in any am or fm channels for some reason I wouldn't be surprised if there are other inherent problems with it. It actually came free with the house when I bought it. : / I have been searching for a nice denon I can afford I wouldn't mind an old tube type amp but I'm horrible at understanding electronics and knowing a good one from a bad one would be all but impossible to me. and some of the ones I saw on the net were like 15 grand. Being almost 50 my eyes have already started to go I'm sure my ears won't be far behind. I will keep reading up on them maybe I might be crazy enough to try one, I read the thread on which amps go best with the Votts so I'm mulling over the info in my pea sized brain and considering them but a nice SS sounds just so easy to plug and play, it's very tempting too. I actually saw a cab that looked very simular to mine on the inside tonight it was a tru....sonic??? It actually had votts in it and and a port that looked like the same size as mine in the same configuration. :waver: