The End Time

**Shooter** · June 12th, 2008, 07:24 PM

Well, i just don't see it anywhere in there about a rapture. The rapture theory just doesnt add up for me.

**imported_ut1** · June 12th, 2008, 10:06 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, i just don't see it anywhere in there about a rapture. The rapture theory just doesnt add up for me. </div></div>

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:13-17 (KJV)

30 "Then the signs of the Son of man will appear in the sky; and then all the tribes of the earth will lament, when they see the Son of man coming upon the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

31 "And he will send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather his elect together from the four winds, from utmost heaven to utmost earth.
Matt 24:30-31 (MontgomeryNT)

"caught up" or "taken away" = Rapture

These verses are the basis for the doctrine.

**imported_ut1** · June 12th, 2008, 10:18 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ut1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There will be no peace until after the Rapture, in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.
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I'm still trying to find where in the Bible the word "Rapture" is....and where it says that God is gonna round us up before tribulation. I must read things alot different because from what I read, he wont be back until its all said and done...and then he's gonna get rid of Satan and his followers first. </div></div>

Then you need to read a lot more, because its all there. The word "rapture" does not appear in the Bible, but is derived from the Latin word "raptus", meaning caught up or taken away. Revelation and all of the letters from Paul are a life-long study in themselves.

**Shooter** · June 14th, 2008, 08:44 AM

Yes yes, ive read that...and it says right there...AFTER.

But please explain to me what happens to the people "left behind" in your rapture theory? Are they all going to Hell?

**imported_ut1** · June 14th, 2008, 10:29 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes yes, ive read that...and it says right there...AFTER.

But please explain to me what happens to the people "left behind" in your rapture theory? Are they all going to Hell? </div></div>
It is not a "theory". It is fact as presented in God's Holy Word.
"After"? Says "after" where??? Certainly not in the text I quoted.

But to answer your question:

Revelation is a book of past, present, and future. Chapters 1 through 3 describe the past and present, while 4-22 deal with future events. Christians will not be here during the Tribulation period, however there will be new converts during the Tribulation period. Chapter 7 describes the number of Gentiles saved as "a great multitude". Only those who are not saved during the Tribulation period are going to Hell. That was their last chance.
The entire point of trying to evangelize the world now, before the Rapture, is to help them avoid the terrible Tribulation period. Sadly, not all will be saved, but God is Righteous in His judgment.

**Shooter** · June 16th, 2008, 09:37 PM

Where does it say after... " and the dead in Christ shall rise first" Reads to me as God is gonna take up the sinners first and bind them and throw them into Hell. And yes i know, you are gonna say the "dead in Christ" are the people who are already dead who are Christians. But i just dont read it that way. Dead in christ, to me, reads Dead in the belief of Christ.

How can anyone be saved during tribulation if the Holy Ghost has been withdrawn from the Earth? It makes no sense.
Ever read the parable of the tares? That pretty much tells the story of mankind, beginning to end.....
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? From whence then has it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay: lest while ye gather up the tares ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the TARES and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

OK...does it not say right there...FIRST, Bind together the unholy and send them to Hell?

"Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who has [good] seed. His enemy came during the night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The person did not let the workers pull up the weeds, but said to them, 'No, otherwise you might go to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be conspicuous, and will be pulled up and burned.""

Again...DONT pull out the christians, because we have to deal with the unholy first.

**Shooter** · June 16th, 2008, 10:01 PM

Also, I found it odd you left out verse 29 of Matthew Chapter 24...

"29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

**imported_ut1** · June 16th, 2008, 10:19 PM

I don't know of any theologian who translates "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" into "Dead in the belief of Christ."

For example, different translations:

16 Because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a word of authority, with the voice of the chief angel, with the sound of a horn: and the dead in Christ will come to life first;
1 Thess 4:16 (BBE)

16 For the Lord himself with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God will descend from heaven. Then the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thess 4:16 (MontgomeryNT)

16 for the Lord himself will descend from heaven, and by the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God, resound the summons: they who died christians shall rise first:
1 Thess 4:16 (MaceNT)

That's exactly what Paul meant when he said: that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. meaning, we which are alive will not rise to meet Christ in the air before they do - they get to go first. Besides that, nowhere have I ever heard or read that Jesus said that He was coming back to raise up the lost first.

When the Tribulation period comes, man will have no trouble recognizing the judgment and wrath of God that is coming as in Revelation 6:16-17:

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Besides that, there will be 144,000 Jews who have been set apart for this period of time, which many theologians believe are set aside to evangelize the world at that time.

And you have a great misunderstanding of the parable you quoted. It is entirely about the separation of the saved verses the lost that will happen on Christ's first appearing "the harvest of souls". Again, He is not sending anyone to Hell (He doesn't anyway, as we do that ourselves by choice)on His first appearing. After the rapture, then the Tribulation, and man's last chance for salvation.

**imported_ut1** · June 16th, 2008, 10:29 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, I found it odd you left out verse 29 of Matthew Chapter 24...

"29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: And THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." </div></div>

Christ returns to the Earth twice, once before the Tribulation to gather His Church, and then later as Conquering Lord after the Tribulation. Don't confuse the two. My first reference to this scripture was to illustrate the point that no one knew when He would first appear, but it sure looks like we're close to that.

**Shooter** · June 16th, 2008, 10:39 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ut1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

And you have a great misunderstanding of the parable you quoted. It is entirely about the separation of the saved verses the lost that will happen on Christ's first appearing "the harvest of souls". Again, He is not sending anyone to Hell (He doesn't anyway, as we do that ourselves by choice)on His first appearing. After the rapture, then the Tribulation, and man's last chance for salvation.
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I guess you are saying Jesus has a great misunderstanding too because i pretty much quoted exactly what he said...
"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."