miniDV as a storage option?

[crimsonson]

Alex:

BetaSP is a analogue format thus its up to you and what your NLE is capable of. The comparison I was making is what is lost during the transfer from the CCD to the tape. Since some signal must be thrown away to fit on the tape. So technically you will need to capture at 23 MB/s to maintain the 3.1 compression done by the circuit. DigiBeta is a 2:1. And D1 is 1:1.

For Avid users the accpetable compression rate is AVR 73/5:1 at least. Though AVR75/3:1 is more popular. 1:1 tranfer is useless since the difference is minute unless you are doing composites then almost any facility will request at least AVR77/2:1 if not 1:1(Uncompressed).
3:1 is about 7-8MB/s.

Also the 3.6MB/s of compression technology untilized by DV is a little bit more advance than BetaSP. The real problem with DV is

1.) 4:1:1 color space. Not ideal for composites. Though some company like Canopus and Pinnacle have introduced CODECs that process the signal at 4:2:2 internally.

2.) Inherit in all digital format is the stair case effect. Certain lines in a scene in certain angles produce lines that are not smooth but rather looks like stairs. The effect is more obvious during movements and pans. It is considerably less in higher res digital formats and still shots



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[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited October 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited October 09, 2001).]

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:

Yes our UVW 1800 can play Betacams but not BetaOxides. Hmmm, still in the process of checking.... I will get back you on that one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, Betaoxide IS regular Betacam. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. When you say it can play "Betacams", do you mean it can play "BetacamSP" only and not the original (nonSP) Betacam oxide? Otherwise I am confused!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crimsonson:

Regarding firewire. If you sent your signal via firewire you are actually making a digital transfer, an EXACT clone. Think of it as from harddrive to harddrive, like moving an Excel file. Changing the bit rate does not affect the resolution whatsoever since DV is fixed at 3.6 MB/5:1/4:1:1.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, again, I did not use analog at any point. And the rate is not "fixed" on my system. I can alter the capture rate from as low as 1 meg per second for offline work to as high as 13 megs persecond for virtually "lossless" video. When I change the capture rate it DOES affect the picture quality even though I am capturing via FireWire. This is because I am NOT editing in the DV codec. I am editig in in the propriatory Reel Time codec. Hence, there is a conversion going on where the DV signal is converted over to the Reel Time signal and then back again. It is still all digital, of course, but it is not like transferring information from one hard drive to the other. It is on systems that edit in the DV codec, but not on my system where a conversion is necessary. It is not an analog conversion, but it is a conversion none the less. Now, I could imagine that going higher than 3.5 or so wouldn't do me any good, but when I go lower there is a staggering fall off in quality, just like when digitizing off line files for Beta.

At any rate, it looks great!

Roger

[Alex]

It is difficult to decide how BetaCam SP compares to Mini-DV when all the Non Linear Edit systems cater to firewire and the Mini-Dv and DV-CAM formats.

I think DV-CAM and Mini-DV has somewhat stunted the value of formats like Digital-S and Beta-Cam SP because the DV formats require slower data transmission rates than Beta-Cam Sp and Digital-S.

Most NLE editing platform software systems like slower data rates. I believe it allows for less errors and just makes it easier in general to make the darn thing work well and efficiently.

So, DV formats may be less quality than BetaCam SP or Digital-S, but still provide a more efficient way to edit on most Non-linear platforms, and since the slightly less quality never diminshes generation after generation, it ends winning the race.

JVC is blowing it by not offering a low cost conversion kit to convert their digital signal to firewire.

I talked to one of their tech's, he went on and on about how superior the video signal was of Digital-S, and I said, "It doesn't matter if the signal is better if a minority of people use the Digital-S format because it is incompatible with firewire".




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Alex

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:

So, DV formats may be less quality than BetaCam SP or Digital-S, but still provide a more efficient way to edit on most Non-linear platforms, and since the slightly less quality never diminshes generation after generation, it ends winning the race.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. We did a test. I had my client transfer a film to both BetaSP and miniDV at the same time. At that point, the BetaSP look clearly the winner, though the miniDV didn't look bad. The BetaSP simply looked "better".

I transferred both to the computer and then back to their respective tapes. The Beta looked okay at that point, but no better than the miniDV and but by the time it went another generation for DVD authoring, it didn't compare to the miniDV at all. So, for all our restoration projects, we're starting out on miniDV and staying digital all the way. That way, my client can see the elements pretty much as they are going to appear in the final DVD without having to guess at generation loss. Life is a lot easier (and cheaper!)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Courier, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex:

JVC is blowing it by not offering a low cost conversion kit to convert their digital signal to firewire. I talked to one of their tech's, he went on and on about how superior the video signal was of Digital-S, and I said, "It doesn't matter if the signal is better if a minority of people use the Digital-S format because it is incompatible with firewire".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hah! Isn't that the truth. Have this clown talk to Panasonic about the fate of their precious MII for a little lesson about "being superior" in the face of bad marketing. If your format doesn't become common, then it is doomed no matter how much better it is. VHS is another example of a lessor product winning the hearts and minds of the public over Betamax. Expensive lesson for Sony.

Roger

[Alex]

I think BetaCam SP still makes sense if you use it as a starting point, and perhaps only as a final edit master....transcode the BetaCam SP image immediately to digital for step by step editing until you are truly done with the project, than make the final transfer back to beta.

The issue of quality and BetaCam SP may relate to the type of Digital encoding you do.

Serial Digital may be what works best with BetaCam SP rather than Firewire Digital...but then the trap of the more expensive editing platform arises all over again.

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Alex

[This message has been edited by Alex (edited October 09, 2001).]