Consolodation?

Until they get the ability to REASON this horse ain't going far, not on my money any way ,but if you will look most of the comments are not from us!

There isn't room for the kids , new construction plus the bonds issue plus the cost we will have to pick up with the cuts the federal gov plans is gonna throw this way around the block. The only "right now" thing is St Paul and that is only if they have as many kids from other counties as what the study hinted at. Rushing this thru will only put us further behind.

[imported_Counts]

Not having a collage in DC I have to ask do the students pay for there collage courses if not I agree advanced classes are not as big a deal if so AP High School classes would be free and thus more accessible to the masses.....I was not as the meeting so I may be wrong but in the Harley reference was he comparing them to the kids or as a reference to Appy being a luxury that is nice to have but not nessacery when you have to cut costs

[imported_Counts]

I lived in Castlewood for awhile and that number would not suprise me it seems that STPaul at least at that time traided students with castlewood preatty freeley whenever someone got mad at a teacher or coach or if they wanted to be on a better BBall or Football team and even if they had a Girl friend at the other school.......So is St Paul officaly on the chopping block? or is this premature?

[R0cketer]

LPD, you are right, talking would be great. It seriously would, however and I don't mean this bad, you have in a nutshell provided proof that it doesn't work.

Your first comment on this was how will you feel I believe to wave10s (I'm to lazy to go look back and get it exactly, but generally thats what was said)....how will you feel is an "emotional" answer.

After that, your discussion has centered on mostly "they have lied" and "thats not what we were told" and "they need to talk". That's it. Anything else that was said, any facts, any numbers, and hard line numbers, it was back to harping on past issues. How can you expect a board, community groups to get past anything when right here on a board, when there is comments that you can go back and read, there is no maybe missing a word or two or such, and yet you keep coming back to the lies. Like I said, say they lied, say they admit it. That does not move squat forward. The issue isn't rather they lied, rather they told they truth, rather Basham is the puppetmaster or the puppet, the issue is being able to pay for what you want and what you got at the end of the day. If there was an unlimited amount of money coming in, sure keep every school open, heck have a teacher for every student and give them all cadillacs to drive to school as well. We know thats not the case. It's not a 1 year view, or even a 5 year view. The schools are all around 50 years old. This is a chance to do something and something has to be done. Either they have to cave in and do whats better for a smaller percentage of the citizens of Wise County (and again, those numbers were provided in the paper before, so I'm going to go with them being accurate, just as LPD has done with comments in the paper), which is allowing every citizen to pay 50% more (1.50 versus 1.00) for a student to go Appalachia than say Powell Valley or they have to do whats best for the majority of the county, which is putting the schools on equal footing.

Guys were viewed as uneducated idiots around here. Most of the people here don't like that, but then some seem to take a sense of pride in it. We can sit here and talk all we want about AP classes not being worth a thing, or there being colleges and them being able to take classes there, but who can, those who can drive, since there aren't buses, and thats taking out time that they could be in other classes, and thats also putting students out on the roads driving, which isn't good either. Look around, look at a typical graduating class at one of our local schools. We have some incredibly smart people around here, but for the most part, due to what opportunities are provided, we start out 2 steps behind those from other areas.

Look I don't claim to know all the answers, I know if the fact that you wait till someone is physically assaulted, its to late. I know that you have a procedure that has to be followed at meetings (I believe most use Roberts Rule as its called) and that some get frustrated and react and act unaccordingly. It has happened to the members of boards and the public, especially when dealing with such powerful issues and subjects.

I totally appreciate that you and others either were lied to or view it as being lied to and thats not good, but sometimes, like I said, lies are in perception and not in actual fact.

It was said that the study was a general study. When people said oh its a consolidation study, they were told its a general study. Some realized that may involve consolidation, some have no idea what that meant and assumed it didn't mean it. That's not a lie, thats an assumption and assumptions are dangerous.

I have tried to provide facts and numbers and such, but there are no numbers that can penetrate someone when they so want something. That's where talking and a dialogue is limited. I know you're an old dawg and its hitting home and hitting hard cause of that and I totally do respect that. Trust me, I don't want Clintwood gone either, and I will hope that it's not the case, but if that happens, it happens. I want what is best for here and as much as I want there to be a Clintwood Green Wave forever, I also know that changes have to occur and looking at our situations here, hard choices have to made. You know Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish aren't walking back in here. We can't live in the past is what that mean, you have to move forward.

Do you think that those in Eastern Kentucky wanted their schools gone when the concept of East Ridge came around? Do you think that the people who had watched the Garden Dragons battle and beat some of the top LPD teams wanted to see their school gone when the talk of Twin Valley came along? I'm sure that the majority would have loved to have kept things just like they were, but to the benefit of the kids who were there and the kids who would be there, they made changes, they have advantages that we are depriving the kids of Wise and Dickenson County of.

I'm not condemning you LPD, I'm seriously not. I do feel like you're so emotionaly invested that you can't step outside and see the big picture. Maybe I'm not emotionaly invested enough. Trust me, Wise County affects us all. We have nothing in Dickenson County, we have to go to Wise County to buy simple items of life even. If Wise County keeps the schools all open, imagine what taxes are going to have to be raised, imagine how bad it will get when, not if, the Northern part of the state starts cutting off the flow. Imagine how bad it could be when the state steps in and says this is going to happen, and instead of maybe consolidation, you get a closing of a school and being told instead of a new school (West Wise Wasps) you're being moved to Powell Valley and told that is that. Its happened elsewhere and it could easily happen here. If it would be tough for people to move to a completely new school, how bad would it be to forced to go to another school?

Talk is wonderful and talk is good and maybe between this discussion we have helped open some eyes to different ideas or views. However if I tell you the sky is blue, and you look up and see the clouds and say its white, me telling you its blue 200 times isn't going to make you change your mind, we can talk about it, fuss about it till we're blue in the face. Neither of us are lying either, its just that we're technically looking at different things and maybe from a different view. I think thats what has happened a lot here. I don't think there have been that many out right attempted lies, I think its a lot of perception problems.

[greencrest1272]

Consolodation is something that we all are going to have to live with. The fact is that the coal is gone and with it is the population. No jobs means no money which leads to having to make sounder finanicial decisions. These may be very difficult decisions but they are ones that must be made for the benefit of the counties. I hate it as much as the next guy. I bleed green and if I didnt there wouldnt be a school around that I would rather be a part of than Appy. I just love the "bulldog" ways and have since little league but sometimes the smart choice isnt always the easiest.

The next step will be to the court system, should the funding run out. This isn't the situation , however. What would be the difference in the state paying the college and paying for a building , teachers , power...If the present trend continues in 10 years PV , JJK and Coeburn will easily hold EVERY high school student in Wise county. Why not alter some bus routes, wait and see before spending that amount of cash? I will have to move, if they tax us enough to pay for the new buildings, Appy was offered an opportunity for an electrical rewiring for free, but the county wouldn't touch it . Now you tell me, who is stubborn, if they won't let folks volunteer at Appy why let'em somewhere else? By the way Screw it , if this is a perception problem , I percieve that I'm not welcome here. See Ya Round.

[greencrest1272]

Im sure there were more technicalities to it other than the county just "not touching it". Theres insurance and making sure its safe before they let just anybody come in and do work. Although if it came through you Spuds or someone you recomended I would probably agree [img]/LDPforum/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[imported_Counts]

there is no need to take your ball and go home. I agree with alot of what you are saying if the people willing to rewire Appy met State certifacations and were going to do the work for free then it was stupid of the board not to let them do it. One thing I am confused about is are they building new schools or just moveing Appy into PV SP to Coeburn and PHS to Wise (that is the way I thought it would work) and the money spent would be on renovating those 3 schools insted of renovating 6 (I might be wrong I am going off old info at this point)......One other thing you are more than welcome here everyone here is not seeing eye to eye but that is life I will be honist I sort of stradle the fence on this issue in general (I do think Consoladation would fix alot of both Wise and DCs problems) You have the opertunity to change my mind and I hope that is the case with anyone on this form none of us know as much as we think we do and nothing is heroic about never changing your mind about something when more facts are presented.

I in a nutshell proved it doesn't work, because what 2 people make a joke about something that is serious? Financially and possibly could go right or wrong? We have seen a little example of what happens when there is no communication. And this is much bigger, than many of those who want to look at, even consider.
Then you yourself do not hear a lot of what i have said. I said basically we are on the same ground. I know the reasons of what needs to be done and why. I know about the numbers, and the cost involved.

However, the questions. I say we all need to have a meeting and folks clear the air and set a tone and talk and what comes about? Nothing but i am deemed as being to close to it, and to emotionally close, and unable to see it clearly? When i said i don't know how many times, i understand all of this and that. I understand the numbers and the cost.

However trust has been lost and when anyone mentions anything everyone gets mad and upset and wants to stub up.

Those with the school administration cannot take the fact they handled the matter and issue wrong. Those on the school board, will not even answer some of the simplest questions you ask of them. So where are the citizens to turn to?
You set there with the idea, let's see if we can calm the tide and make this work. No one wants to listen including the citizens, because their faith in the system has been diminished.

I pointed out to Merlin what was said and done in the past and what was started before the 2003, school year started that set about a problem between the administration, board and citizens. And anyone will have to admit the timing was not the best, for this to be laid out in 2003. Just sprung up out of the blue.
I myself have stayed rather neutral through out most of this whole matter other than a few comments here and there. I did point out the lies. Even ask Jim if it was causing a problem on here. His reply not as i have seen or heard. I said ok. If it does let me know and i will stop.
I have looked at the big picture and overall picture.
I see and know a lot of the problems. But just as spuds stated. We had people basically offer to rewire Appalachia for free. This was more or less snubbed upon by those within the administration.

So i turn the picture around and looked at it. Ok. Lets reach some neutral or common ground. Let's say hey. You messed up, we messed up. You and we may of taken some things wrong. We all may of jumped the gun and took offense. So let's start off fresh with a few apologizes and go from there.
You cannot even get anyone to want to do that.

The administration feels that is wrong to say. Yes to it. Some on the school board basically have to much pride to admit it. And the citizens the same attitude and mistrust, they had when this first started.

If everyone truly wants to do what is best for our kids and our schools. You work on it together. What you pointed out number wise i know Rocketer. And i know about the change in cost. Where a lot of the problems arise. No one will say maybe we need to stop, and take a fresh look at this, and all work on this. Administration, board and citizens.

We all know it is something that is not going to go away. And it's not an easy fix. But when you hear a meeting is gonna be held to talk consolidation, then you attend and ask one question it is taken as an insult and all get mad, this being the administration and the board.
All i remember at the start of this in 2003 was why Appalachia first? To me it wouldnt' of mattered who was first.
First was to have a detailed plan and tell how it was to work, give the people a chance to look at it all. Get a feel for what needs to be done.

That never materialized and as some ask questions, certain members of the board also got irate. And took it as just a personal attack on them. Later, it did lead to a few being singled out. Because of their attitudes toward the citizens, not just the citizens toward them.

To me im open to anything that will work and will be feasible, for the kids and their future. And all most from Appy wanted was to be included. Let us and those you want to consolidate be involved, every community, you are looking at consolidating. So we can see it is done with even citizen input. What's wrong with that concept? It may help ease the transition. When and if consolidation does happen. But that seems as far fetched as anything.
As some in the administration resent the fact of having anyone, from outside the administration and school board have any input. Yet they scream we want and need your input?

If they truly wanted it, and wanted this to be a working and joint venture, they would work toward doing that. Not some sitting there not answering any questions. Or saying we will not hear this or that.
Some times public opinion was well in a way nothing. Some who went and ask what can we do, and what is the best answers for the future, their questions went unanswered. Complete silence until they were told their time was up? Is this people who seem themselves, ready to work with the citizens? Are they not accountable?

As i said i know the figures i have looked at them. I knew well in advance, what this last efficiency study would show and say. Not word for word, but just from what i know about the problems, and the amount of money that will and is needed.
My questions are not hard and their not bias and im not saying them based on emotions. Im asking why will the administration, board and others, not look at the big picture of it all. And begin to work together. We need what is in the best interest of the children. Even if it means consolidation at some point and time.

My one problem. Is what i see. A willingness of those who have the say so, not to want anyone else involved. The study ask questions, ask what was needed, and what needed to be done here and there. That i applaud. But it also in giving citizens input, never addressed how to fund any thing anyone brought up.

I don't have all the answers in any way. But i know currently, with the hostility from all involved., This is no way to try to work it out for our children.
What would be the problem of having citizens, from the county working right along with members of the administration and board?
Would that not make this seem more like a joint venture, when and if it does happen. Instead of a venture by just the administration and board.

It may happen it may not happen for years to come. But the figures do not lie. At some point something has to be done. All i am saying. Make it a joint venture.
That way all have a chance to work on the whole venture. No one from any community can not point fingers or say we had no say.
If they have a group working along side.
I think many in Lee County would agree with this. And it may of helped if they were involved. Right now with just their travel problem in sports. Had one person from a citizens group been involved. Maybe that one question would of been ask.
You can combine most schools in Wise Co. and probably only have one that may have to face moving up sports wise. Pound/Kelly.

However, without anyone wanting to set aside their feeling and work on this. Not just the administration only, board only, but as a group, interested for what is best for Wise County, and for the children in Wise County.

I don't see that happening now or anytime soon. I see that some resent the idea, of any kind of community involvement, other than at meetings. And in those meeting so much is said and discussed you cannot get a grasp for what each is facing.

The administration may get some better sensitivity, if they would work with the citizens and so would the board. Most of the time, no one knows what is going on. The board seems in reality, as if they are some what surprised, and they have as many questions as the citizens do? When you see this happening you have to ask. Why? They should at least know more than we do.
Yet it never seems that way. Some seem caught as off guard as the citizens do.

To me do what is best for the children. Work together to make it the best thing that could ever be in Wise County, and something we don't get into, and realize we made a huge mistake here or there.
And something that those entering school at the time it happens, do not have to redo or pay for again, by the time they are getting out of school. Ready to go to work or to college, if they can afford it.

I was all for building three new high schools myself. Building them some where near the four lane for easy access, and beign state of the art. I was told that was stupid? Yet that seems to be the concensus now. Many have pointed out that it would cost much less to build 3 new schools including adding stadiums and tracks for sports. But those ideas from citizens are called or were called unacceptable.
Yet, someone from outside Wise County comes and says the same thing. Well that is the most amazing thing that we could ask for. It was done ask once. And was told it was unfeasible, yet comes some one else in and says it, and it's the most amazing thing that we could ask for?

Like i said i know the numbers and the figures, i have took a step back and looked at it all.
But until some get to the point they can trust this administration and board. And them respect, and ask for the citizens input, and actually mean it. Well we will be right where we are now.

Sometimes having a person who isn't as involved, but has some ideas help. As the old saying goes, two head are better than one.
If this is to happen at some point, and the administration and board want this to work, and so do the citizens, with their input.
Everyone needs to get to that point to where they can work together. Being open and truthful and open from all administration, to board, to citizens.
Well as i said till that happens. We will be right where we are now. Standing at an impass because of pride and attitudes. Is that worth our county suffering and our kids? Because a few will not let their pride down, and some will not say maybe we all were wrong to some extent. Make amends and start afresh working toward what is right for our county and our kids.

Something i have seen totally lost in all this is the kids. I am yet to hear anyone actually say what is in the best interest for the children of Wise County. And how will it affect their futures. Not just now but if this ever does happen. Will it be done right so they don't inherit more debt? A lot of questions as i said, but few answers. And a lack on many sides to work together.

And one reason we are thought of as uneducated and stupid. We never lead or set the example for others to follow. We let them come in and tell us what to do. That's fine if need be. But when you never take a step to be leaders, how can you expect to be called a leader? Or not looked upon as uneducated? We as adults have dropped the ball a lot. We let ourselves doom our own kids and futures, why because we accept the norm. We don't say let's make it work and make it something others will look to as an example. Easy to understand why we are considered the uneducated hillbillies isn't it.