Dissapointed

That is what I am getting tired of, guy's starting threads to say this guy is not up to par with a certain style according to their view and THAN coming across like that style of music is SUPERIOR to other styles which is snobbery. Do the guy's who are so enamored by one style over other's like it when someone who think's ANOTHER way of playing is WAY and FAR above what THEY hold to be dear and true. Many guy's into Metal think Jazz is a waste of time. Or guy's into Blues/R&B think everyone thing else is beneath them. Why does it have to go that route. I can list many top notch drummers who have made statements to the fact that their is always the JAZZ police running around(far more than other's liking their style of music) trying to set everyone straight. I am into fusion and prog rock always have been. Should I start arguments pointing out why jazz players STINK at playing other styles or to share why Jazz does nothing for me(though that is not true), why waste my time.

I do not hide the fact that I REALLY like Virg, Vinnie, Dave Weckl, Dave Dicenso, Jeff "Tain" Watts, Tony Williams on and on but what is the point of starting arguments or threads in general just to talk down about one drummer because he does not do a certain style as well as other's or maybe just to trash the music in general. Call me a Fanboy all you want but I will refrain from being negative towards a certain drummer because they cannot do EVERYTHING well or are not the KING of a certain style or to embarrass someone because possibly I do not dig the music they are involved in.

Jeez. Can't I leave you guys alone for five minutes?

First off, this is my forum. There is no "free speech" here. If anyone doesn't like the kind of discussion I encourage, or disagrees with topics we see fit to nuke, there are plenty of other forums to go to. Closing the Reality topic wasn't so much about the original topic as much as antics that ended up happening at the end.

Anyway I've read a lot of interesting things trying to catch up with all of this and I still come away with the same thing. People feel the need to enlighten others with their opinion as if it were scripture. I always think that's funny. It reminds me of when I was young and naive.

The bottom line is if you don't think Vinnie isnt a jazz player because he hasn't obeyed the the jazz commandments thats totally fine. If you want to communicate that on a forum thats also fine. You have a choice how do to do so. Here's where folks usually lose the audience I notice:

1) Vinnie is not a jazz drummer. This is an absolute fact <strike>about music</strike> because X, Y, and Z and he hasn't drank the magic jazz potion or whatever.

Or theres this one:

2) I don't think Vinnie is a serious jazz musician, in the same way that someone like Max Roach, Erskine, or Jeff Watts is because he's not closely in touch with it's history and hasn't memorized the melody and form to every tune in the book. Granted he knows how to play the style, he just doens't take it as seriously as the other hard-core old school type players that I prefer do.

Now had a topic been introduced like #2 I get the feeling a lot of tension could have been avoided. But there are people that make blanket statements based on opinion that like it or not, are less interested in discussing and more interested in preaching, teaching, enlightening, whatever. I am guilty of this from time to time as well but I try not to.

OK thats that.
Now as far as the topic itself I was thinking about Steve Smiths History of the US beat DVD. He plays an old kit on there, literally teaches the history of US music from blues to jazz to rock with playing examples, musicians and all. Plays the heck out of brushes, is an expert on jazz drummers and it's history. By the jazz nazi logic he is not a jazz drummer.
That's just not true, and I dont even like Smith's swing playing all that much.

What about the rock guys out there? By the same Jazz nazi logic they are not rock drummers unless they memorize all the classic rock tunes, learn the history of rock drumming, and drink the magic rock potion?
Again the logic doesn't hold up.

The fact is feeling all the passion in the world about music, or a musician doesn't change the fact that there really are no absolutes in music, and it's silly to state opinions as such. Especially if you're interested in a discussion.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 03:46 AM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

Well said Steve.

Freedom of speech is the concept that allows someone to run a forum like this.

Anyone who doesn't like it can go else where (or start their own forum)

I've always tried to have an opinion on things when I post here (which has probably not gained many 'fans' here) but it is important I think for people to post what they think but also respect that it is Steve's forum and if he thinks a discussion has run it's course to repect that too.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
Communism is not something I'm fond of. I love speaking freely and being subjected to others actual feelings.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This situation is more along the lines of dictatorship, not communism! Steve is President Bush, and this is his America. That's that. He controlls this forum because he is the one in power... if he thinks something is getting out of hand, the button is pushed and the topic is LOCKED! Sure, people don't like this - but that's just how it is. THAT IS THE REALITY.

I hope my analogy didn't offend anyone.

[img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 06:06 AM: Message edited by: CLWarunki ]</font>

Well, how about "Vinnie IS a jazz drummer because he HASN'T obeyed the jazz commandments of the past!!!???"

I thought the essence of jazz was to evolve and change.

I guess what bothers me most about SDK's post (apart from the slurs towards one of the greatest drummers of our time) is the proclamation that the "bebop form" stopped developing the minute drummers didn't use open-tuning 18" bass drums and a standard 4-piece kit. Well, let me tell ya when I saw Tony Williams in 1977 with VSOP with a huge kick drum, damped, and with three floor toms the art form of jazz and bebop was very much ALIVE AND WELL!!!!

Only last night I was having some ideas about maybe as many as three different size bass drums, some very small and particularly large toms and some super dry cymbal replacement metal stuff somebody's making right now. I guess that this wouldn't be jazz though right? I broke the rules. But ... Charlie Parker and John Coltrane didn't break any rules at all, right SDK?

I love the classic sound. People still make magic using it in the realm of jazz performance. But it stops there?? Oooh that's troubling. To me.

Very best,

GH

Originally posted by CLWarunki: . . . This situation is more along the lines of dictatorship, not communism! Steve is President Bush, and this is his America. . .

Wha! Bush? Them's fightin' words Buckwheat!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 08:26 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

Gary, I couldn't agree with you more and you said it in a way I couldn't.

I think around 3 thread was closed since 2weeks, that become Lot...

IMHO thread should be closed only if there is insult, racism or thing like that....

Dig wrote:
"When Jazz becomes BOXED in and absolute than is it really Jazz anymore?"

Yeah we can go back to the language analogy on that...doesn't language change? Aren't new words added and meanings changed over time?

Isn't music the "international language".

When a language ceases to grow...isn't it a dead language?

We're created to create...once that process stops... language, art and music stop growing.

I listen to Max, Blakey, DeJohnette or Tony because I like the music, the vibe; not because they are part of some rigid 'tradition' dictated by critics and posers.