Dissapointed

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Flarobstix:
Tony's kick drum was never dead never flat, even with a carpet in there to control the sound.

---

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Very true. He had incredible tone. Probably my favourite bass drum sound. I tried setting mine up like that for a while, but most engineers couldn't (or wouldn't) deal with it, plus I never really played that style of music. Controlling the rebound with that type of setup is something that takes a while to get used to as well (and I never really did master it).

That's one of the things that's overlooked. Foot technique.
These drummers, allow the beater to come back allowing the drum to ring, they can also dampen it with the beater whenever they want:
Steve Jordan, Dave Weckl(although his kick is dead), Keith Carlock, JR(dead kick also), Ari Hoenig, Steve Hass, Simon Phillips and a variety of jazz drummmers., I love it when pop and rock guys tune open. It kills me! Weck and JR play dead kicks, but they still allow the beater to fly back off the head rather than bury it into the head.

well said matey!!
i second that [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] .
EVOLUTION is the keyword here.

yes, no more threads about hass please. thanks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary Husband:
[QB]Well, how about "Vinnie IS a jazz drummer because he HASN'T obeyed the jazz commandments of the past!!!???"

I second that. [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Hmm, well, there are many issues and angles coming up here ... and I guess I'm to blame as far as not being able to define what is meant by "open tuning" for a kick drum accurately. Sorry. (I remember Allan Holdsworth relaying to me how he used to watch Tony mute his kick drum and set it up ... at least in the Lifetime band.)

I do have to wonder, what are "the rules of jazz" one can master before we can then go ahead and break them? Perhaps you can explain them and define them for me Flarobsticks. I'm not aware of them, either as an improvising keyboard player or as a drummer. All I "know" in actual fact was learning all I could of the development line in jazz, and the feeling I got from an immense variety of different drummers and personalities in music. Many of them (obviously) the early pioneers, a lot of them coming from quite an obvious swinging jazz line of development and a lot not particularly so.

For what it's worth, as far as I'm concerned, having heard Vinnie in quite a few settings where he's played in a swinging jazz small group context, he has absorbed enough of this kind of playing down the history of this music to playing the s--- out of drums in a swinging jazz context! Sorry! That's certainly how it sounded to my ears, and how it figured in my instinct. Is the fact that he had small Yamaha studio sounding toms and a deadened kick drum crucial in the definition of what he does as not being jazz?

Another response point is that I certainly did hear Miles play with a fair number of people who didn't seem to have an obvious grasp on swingjazz particularly, as it was mentioned here. I heard a lot of them try to come off like they had a handle on it ... but it didn't always sound in their capacity or true natural capability, to my ears. It sounded contrived and kinda just "taken on" with some of them.

Listen, every great drummer I know of OF COURSE, did their research. It's part of the normal work! I never stopped - from big band jazz drummers, to jazz, fusion and rock drummers. Of course we should be aware of all the developments and innovations made - it's our duty to in a way. I certainly felt it to be, and still do. I've probably done as much straight-ahead work as anything else in my career, and I've always enjoyed trying to make that way work in my own kind of way.

Absorbing the traditions is pretty much what drummers do to grow, learn and find themselves, and (hopefully) carry this art form on. I am certain this is what Vinnie Colaiuta did, and still does!! I do find it a little presumptuous someone can make decisions into who supposedly has or hasn't specifically done that, or who isn't "respecting" the evolution or the innovations and developments made in jazz drumming through the ages.

Hey, who knows! Lewis Nash and Allan Holdsworth could very well possibly find a very nice interaction with each other!! Not fusion, not swingjazz maybe ... something really individual and different. How do you know!!?? Similarly, someone like Steve Smith almost seems to qualify as a walking biography or encyclopaedia on jazz drumming development, but I'm afraid ... for me ... his swinging playing really doesn't particularly float my boat. Personally. So hmm, we can go on, but ...

Anyway, I'm rambling here and probably not explaining myself too well. (Time for bed!)

Sincerely,

GH

A journalist once asked Louis Armstrong what 'jazz' was - he replied "If you have to ask the question you'll never know the answer."

Amen Gary, I am sure not the most knowledgable person when it comes to Jazz but I remember reading comment's from Tony himself that Jazz was about Evolving and expanding and even bringing other influnces in and if that was not happening than it really was not in the Spirit of Jazz. When Jazz becomes BOXED in and absolute than is it really Jazz anymore?

Dig

you could lock every thread for all i care. as far as drumming goes (and for most other subjects) this board is 2nd to none. not to mention the amount of vinnie material i've gotten over the past couple years. all thanks to steve and the moderators. way to go! keep it up!

CL warunki and Henry II..... no (politics) Bush wanking in here [img]wink.gif[/img]

The drum is the thing!! (I think Shakesphere once said that [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Steve points it out boldly.

Gary H......... well what can you say about Gary?? He's IS part of that "jazz" history. His blood bleeds the voice of Tony and those that influenced Tony as does Vince and many of us that make that attempt.

I was very offended, as a fan, and a friend of Vinces when I read.........

"Let's not live in a fantasy..... The man [Vince]is human. And whoever said he could play be-bop..... please don't insult Jazz."

WOW!!! I thought to myself?? (again referring to the big balls thing). Not only is that just a downright insult to the man, but his playing ability. Then I started to think..... it's usually those that have a need to prop themselves higher by putting those down that surely can't defend themselves if they were in the same room with the one they were insulting. (whew!! say that 10 times fast!!)

Plus.... in the professional world of music, you'd know that talking chit about anothers playing is just a reflection upon yourself.

I can assure you that Vince is incredibley intellectual and that his knowledge of "Jazz" history is VERY complete. Now weather he choses to play in the "style" you mention, well.... it's obvious. He does what "he" likes to do. But when you take into consideration what he's capable of, I don't think it would take too much to realize that he "could" play.......... (dare I say??) probably mimic exactly what these other drummers could do. Kinda the way Bissonette went on a tangent of learning "Ringosims". But that isn't what drummings all about is it?? That is...... unless you want to live a in creative box?? I think ultimately, it's to have a "voice" and to have a particular "thing" you're known for. Even if your thang is to be a Chameleon which is what I think Vince truly is.

I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that I think Vince is very competant in playing more styles than most, and sounds amazing usually doing so.