Dissapointed

At a clinic once Zakir Hussein told us how music was his spirituality and that it is always changing and too sacred to define, the journey is always in it (playing) and not from the outside defining it. It's like having cameras recording an experiece actually being sacreligious to the experience. Once you start to define something (jazz) it becomes something else and reified (materialised) so that we mistake the definition for the process. Western (influenced) thinking is REALLY bad at doing this. Jazz is a path and dictionary definitions don't do it justice. If your trying to define it your no playing it enough!

Agreed . I was merely trying to point this thread to some kind of resolution, if there is any. I agree completely with what GH says as well. Abstractions about jazz, such as saying it's a language is what I'm trying to resolve for some here. Maybe the problem is that calling it a language isn't the best phrase. This could turn philosophical very quickly, but a language can't exist in a vacuum. Meaning that it has to be bi-directional, go both ways. If the musicians are communicating ideas to each other, through improvisation, then it's all how the drummer interprets the soloist, hence the interpretation becomes the language. but there is a foundation to the interpretation and the question still stands to those who call it a language, what is the foundation?

There are characteristics to the traditional jazz drumming,yes. Is it a language? I'm not so sure. No one who speaks any language can truly understand another person who speaks the same language. but, again that's more philosophical. If some choose to call jazz a language, fine. But there must be building blocks to that form of music (communication by means of certain characteristics of the soloist, rhythm patterns,etc)

I don't mean to further complicate the matter, but non-verbal communication occurs in any improvisational type of music. This is a more high level type of communication and I don't think it qualifies the some music as a language.

Maybe some are confusing communication with language. Language is the system used to communicate. Or communication is the means by which the language is used. In either case, if some choose to call jazz a language, then there must be a system used to communicate the language. The communication is done by the instruments.
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--------Probably me being an asshole------------
My hypothesis is that jazz isn't defined as a language becuase once someone defines it, if that's possible, then the jazz elitists will lose what they think is 'undefineable artform' and once they lose their precious language, it will become apparent that it's no longer an secret dialect.They won't be able to use it as an excuse to propagate their elitist agenda, and some of their agenda is to fool the music community into beleiving that there is, indeed a 'language' to what they do. Saying that jazz is a language makes me feel that some people are taking it too seriously, bloating it and making it bigger than what it is, good music...

On the other hand, if it is a language, then there is no secret to figuring it out, no one can tell you how to communicate it, becuase it's interpretational.
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My question still stands and I welcome anyone's interpretation of what defines jazz as a language.
I will reiterate my position: traditional jazz drumming is an interpretational communication between the drummer and the rest of the jazz band and is characterized by certain traditional aspects, hence I don't beleive it's a language by definition of the word.

I'm probably over-analyzing, but as someone once said, "don't mess with the bull son, you'll get the horns." lol.

It's poetry man, simply poetry and in this day and age (for a long time infact) poetry (which goes against everything this computer is running on, cybernetics, system theory stuff) leaves soo much room for interpretation, a mystery in a sense and here we are trying to use our very Barbaric language to define it! It's quite funny because most of the time we can get away with defining things but art... why waste breathe but at the same time its quite funny to try to come close, or think you can. When I lived in Seattle before I got serious about drums i lived with a jazz guitarist and he would have these old cats come over and hang and they would talk jazz. They weren't defining it by all means but "hanging in the vibe". Same goes with all types of music.

Am i getting off topic????

According to Bobby Sonabria(spell?)

Jazz is a word which comes from Jizza or some ethnic word which refers to jism. I know this is not a nice thing to say, but Bobby said it. I am not making this up.

Quote:

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Originally posted by D.Seipel:
I'd also like to throw this out there: Would most of you agree that in many musical settings, the drums are really more of an accompaniment, meaning an instrumental part designed to support or complement a melody. If that's true then isn't the 'language of jazz drumming' a function of the jazz melody?

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ May 07, 2005 11:30 AM: Message edited by: D.Seipel ]</font></font>

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I like this and highly agree. Since the drums are not purely a harmonic instrument playing the melody or accompanying the melody becomes a very abstract proposition. That is where the art is if you ask me. Now how drummer X and drummer Y play could be SO different. Are they still both Jazz drummers?

The more I think about it I actually think if it's better if the music does the talking - like it's supposed to!

It's there to express what words cannot say anyway. That's what music has always done.

Jazz? There's no book, no certificate of authenticity handed out to certain people. In the end, if what an artist is doing hits you in that good place and sounds real to you then what more can any player ask ... or any listener ask?

It's not an ?litist endeavour and it's certainly not dogma. It's for anyone who feels to cultivate it in themselves, and develop it. The particular "swing" element in improvisation is either in the grasp or soul of the artist to be able to produce it in a nice way or it's not, to my thinking.

The history of what's happened and the way it's developed and evolved is on the records. Listen, listen, listen and that can be absorbed over time. That's all any artist can gain a conception of whatever kind of language it may be.

It doesn't make a different how much a player stretches himself in different areas of music either. If he's in a jazz situation, making it work, making it feel good, propelling it and centering that music well, and for the total aid, benefit and betterment of the music and how everyone's playing together, then to me the artist is doing a pretty good job. If it's creative, perpetually, with every performance then I think it's totally acceptable for that artist to be known as, and refer to themselves, as a jazz musician.

As a jazz musician fundamentally myself, this is, again, my two cents worth.

GH

Quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Husband:
Jazz? There's no book, no certificate of authenticity handed out to certain people. In the end, if what an artist is doing hits you in that good place and sounds real to you then what more can any player ask ... or any listener ask?

It's not an ?litist endeavour and it's certainly not dogma. It's for anyone who feels to cultivate it in themselves, and develop it. The particular "swing" element in improvisation is either in the grasp or soul of the artist to be able to produce it in a nice way or it's not, to my thinking.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right on man,

Listen, I think the problem lies Flarob, in your inability to communicate. (Don't know how you survive in Jazz without that skill! [img]wink.gif[/img] )

You sound like you're saying, "well whatever you all think - you can think what you like - you're wrong". I know you can't mean that brother, that's just how it comes across.

I think what you are trying to say is pretty purist on the basist of levels. Are you saying Jazz is only really played by people who live it? Well, I'd argue that jazz is as much about emotion, expression, heart and hardship as anything else. That's my interpretation of it. Some forms of jazz have the swing ridde pattern with hats on two and four - some forms don't. Jazz was formed around rule-breaking right?

Is there anywhere I can check out your playing dude? I'd love to hear some of your stuff if I can.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions mate, you as much as any of us, just try not to sound like you think you're the authority on it man... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Peace bro...

MP

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 08, 2005 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Groovemeister ]</font>

Flar,

I think Groove is saying that you're an inarticulate oaf. But, he doesn't mean that in a bad way. LMAO.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 09, 2005 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

(in the words of Steve Holmes).......

I can't leave you guys alone for 2 seconds!! [img]wink.gif[/img] I go to Palm Springs and you're still talking about "language"!! GEEZE!! [img]wink.gif[/img]

I for one would love to hear these guys (SDK, Flarob, and that other dood) play "jazz". That would be cool. I always get a much better perspective of where someone is coming from when they put it into their own "language".

just my 4 1/2 cents (no more 2 cents... inflation is getting otta control here in the states [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] )

From an interview on Vinnie's web site:

A recent concert with Alan Pasqua, John Patitucci, and Vinnie had inspired me after seeing a piano trio with no clearly defined leader. I asked Vinnie to describe this type of trio playing ...

"A lot of people don't know the different sides of me and I think that a lot of times if I haven't played with a trio in a while, I might be a little uncomfortable sitting down and feeling at home with that kind of music. But after a couple of gigs I feel more comfortable. The thing is I was educated and had that influence in my upbringing to a certain extent and I love playing it. I didn't want to approach it as the type of guy who when we were playing in clubs had to play real soft all the time and play just so because stylistically that was the way. There is a whole way of thinking among bebop players that you have to play just this way and that all the rhythmic figures go this way too. That's not my dictum, that's not what I'm about, so I just play - I let it rip. I played loud when I wanted to, I played soft when I wanted to, I played real inside when I wanted to and real outside when I wanted to."

"When I say when I wanted to I don't mean I now impulsively want to play outside even though it has nothing to do with the other guys because I want to draw attention to me. WRONG! I mean I feel it would be musically relevant - I'm there, part of this event, and I'm doing it because it's what I feel now. It's not valid because I'm thinking it out rationally - I'm reacting and emotionally knowing that it's valid. I don't stop to think about it, although it's not on automatic pilot either. It's improvisation."

"The way I am as a person may have a lot to do with how I play the drums. I don't know, that's a whole other kind of issue that I've often wondered about - whether you could separate your musical being from just the way you are. It's just who you are I think."