Dissapointed

I want to hear the language. And a few versatile players can provide me with that.

What does that mean specifically? For the player to play things that you recognize from the traditional jazz drumming school?
It's a shame that there are prerequisites that players have to meet in order for one to enjoy music. If a new up and coming kid came out playing amazing drumming that felt good and made the music feel great and swing hard, to think he's not a jazz drummer is silly. As is saying someone else that plays the style well but hasn't gone through the jazz-hazing program so they cannot be called a jazz musician.
They're playing doesn't qualify them apparently, they must first have knowledge of certain historical things. I'm all for people knowing the history but if they don't, and can still play their ass off then saying they're not a jazz player is narrow minded. Say that they're not as serious, not as commited perhaps. Saying theyre not a jazz player is simply a blanket generalization and that's where the friction in this thread lies.

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ May 06, 2005 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 06, 2005 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Steve Holmes ]</font>

can you explain the language for me? some specific things they play that make them jazz drummers to you.

I think it's whatever Kenny G plays.

In my studies of Jazz I've found that this "language" is extremely vague and individual; so much so that you really can't quantify it. You listen, absorb the past, and play with your voice. My opinion of course.

Maybe calling it a language implies some type of quantified vocabulary? (ie nouns, verbs, etc...) If there are these specifics in Jazz what are they? Rhetorical question btw.

I'd say Jazz (music) is a form of non verbal communication that transcends any type of formal definition.

With that mind set in place I would never claim one type of player who executes the music to be more fluent than another based on what they choose to play. Who knows how what they hear effects them, and how they choose to respond on their instrument? I was watching the video of the Acoustic Band at the Tokyo Blue Note and kept telling myself Vinnie isn't a Jazz drummer, Vinnie isn't a Jazz drummer. I couldn't convince myself of that.

Has the art form really existed long enough for formal definitions? Thoughts?

How about this? Vinnie is a drummer. We all can agree on that [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 07, 2005 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font>

Well obviously we are incapable of understanding this Jazz language according to some,it seems to be beyond our understanding(IT IS SO DEEP), can we now move to Rock&Roll and the guidelines for playing it right, is it to beyond our grasp? Then we can move to the blues and find out where we are wrong about that. And I agree with what Zak said! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] What is this Mysterious language with these rules that we cannot seem to latch onto, Vinnie included is that right?

This thread is NOT a waste of time. It has repetitive moments but illustrates the open mindedness of the mod?s and how thoughts, no matter how mundane to some are accepted. I can?t remember a thread like this in my four years here. This is a good thing.

Why so important? I believe the issue presented, ?What is jazz and who can be its ambassadors?? is not unlike almost any intellectual debate on just about any noteworthy subject. This thread is significant because open discussion beyond the parameters of, ?Dude, whatever?think what you want? and moving beyond this, exploring greater depths of thought that can allow some to hear more than what might take place in a bar or during a drive some place before its time to grab some grub and change the subject.

As I see it, the strong opinions of some (their held convictions based on facts as they see it) are fine. It is when the strong opinion crosses the boundary of opinion into fact by those who hold such deeply felt thoughts that controversy ensues. This is what we have here in this thread. The hot debate then shifts from the original thought to whether the opinion is indeed a fact. Those who are so deeply engrossed in their opinion can lean towards the dictatorship of thinking their opinion is fact. The desire to convince others of this creates a school of thought either to be accepted or rejected. This is how I see schools of musical conviction start up. School A teaches from a specific set of convictions and School B from another.

Think about church denominations. There are great variances of denominations all under the umbrella of Christianity. How can this be? We have one Bible yet all these different schools of thought on how to worship and walk in one?s faith. One church feels their way has the hold on truth, another feels they have the truth. Interpretation (hermeneutics and epistemology) govern each school of thought.

Same true in musical schools of thought.

Gary Husband said;

Quote:

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I guess what bothers me in this whole point is somehow I get the impression that drummers who stretch themselves over quite a few styles - who draw from and involve themselves in a lot of different other areas aren't really somehow ever going to be the real thing.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with Gary?s thought fully here. Vinnie is a master of many styles or at least can play many styles in convincing manner. Does that mean he is not a ?real jazzer??

The traditionalist might say, NO. Unless one is fully submerged in the genre of jazz and knows its history and nuance, he cannot really be able to interpret the art form fully. He might be able to touch on certain aspects convincingly, but be genuine?NO. The non-traditionalist is open to the versatility of one and embraces him much more fully. The traditionalist says this is a sell-out.

This is an age old argument that takes place in almost all disciplines. It is when the great divide takes place and the dialogue halts that many feel like they have victory.

Derek is right in saying threads stay open until personal attacks take place. I can hardly remember when Steve locked a thread, despite personal attacks. The mods here rarely lock a thread?and I?m sure they wish they had a lot of times. They seem to leave their own biases aside to let others do their thing.

Imagine how old it gets to hear the same topics come up? ?Who?s the best this or that?? or ?What?s the best way to do this or that?? Those here for a long time get an earful of similar themes that come up all the time, but new members keep coming and old threads emerge. They don?t lock these threads stating we have covered this before.

I can tell you there is one guy who acts like Big Brother in his forum, private emailing you with the message of suspension or the need to wait a week before posting a thread. The forum is like his own little empire, with him sitting on the high throne. He?s just insecure and probably really lonely. The forum gives him purpose. No surprise there. It always comes down to issues of control doesn?t it? Yet, that forum will never really grow, not in numbers (there are MANY seeking their own little world where they have the truth of drumming and all who disagree are not really serious minded musicians creating a false sense of security) but grow in thought about drumming and music. A thread like this would never have survived the current 85 posts without serious mod intervention.

Agree or disagree, at least we can have a place to ?really get into it? even if the thread extends itself beyond the patience of many.

Just my opinion [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 07, 2005 04:44 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

Here's a fact:

lan?guage (lăng'gwĭj)
n.

Communication of thoughts and feelings through a system of arbitrary signals, such as voice sounds, gestures, or written symbols.
Such a system including its rules for combining its components, such as words.
Such a system as used by a nation, people, or other distinct community; often contrasted with dialect.

A system of signs, symbols, gestures, or rules used in communicating: the language of algebra.
Computer Science. A system of symbols and rules used for communication with or between computers.
Body language; kinesics.
The special vocabulary and usages of a scientific, professional, or other group: ?his total mastery of screen language?camera placement, editing?and his handling of actors? (Jack Kroll).
A characteristic style of speech or writing: Shakespearean language.
A particular manner of expression: profane language; persuasive language.
The manner or means of communication between living creatures other than humans: the language of dolphins.
Verbal communication as a subject of study.
The wording of a legal document or statute as distinct from the spirit.

Here's another from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:

Main Entry: 1jazz
Pronunciation: 'jaz
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: origin unknown
1 a : American music developed especially from ragtime and blues and characterized by propulsive syncopated rhythms, polyphonic ensemble playing, varying degrees of improvisation, and often deliberate distortions of pitch and timbre b : popular dance music influenced by jazz and played in a loud rhythmic manner

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 07, 2005 11:09 AM: Message edited by: D.Seipel ]</font>

Now that we all know the definitions of both of these words, can we define what the language of jazz is? I think we can. Furthermore, I think it can be explained. I fully repspect some of the opinions here, but I think that this needs to be defined. If we choose not to fully define it, then 'jazz as a language' becomes something that only exists in the minds of those who choose not to define it.

Keep in mind, I'll agree there is a definite 'language' when it comes to playing jazz. I'll also admit that I don't know what it is or how exactly to define it. It would require some more research on my part and then it would only reflect the scholarly research that I have access to.

I'd also like to throw this out there: Would most of you agree that in many musical settings, the drums are really more of an accompaniment, meaning an instrumental part designed to support or complement a melody. If that's true then isn't the 'language of jazz drumming' a function of the jazz melody?

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 07, 2005 11:30 AM: Message edited by: D.Seipel ]</font>

Quote:

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Originally posted by Flarobstix:
Musical language isn't about licks and fills. It's a language of harmony, melody and rhythm. And this is the last time I'm saying this, because I feel as if no one is listening, or even trying to learn....YOU CAN TAKE IT ANYWHERE, once you know it. What makes drummers different is who knows it.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I hear the frustration is this post. I'll agree that musical language is about harmony,melody and rhythm. But for a drummer, it's about complementing melody and harmony and creating a rhythm structure behind (or slightly ahead,lol) the melody or harmony. Am I mistaken? I'm not a traditional jazz player and I don't claim to speak jazz as a language, I speak "broken - jazz" if anything, lol.