Dissapointed

DOUBLE POST! SHOOT!

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 02:31 PM: Message edited by: GrooovePig ]</font>

this thread should be renamed to "THE REALITY PART II: THE RISING OF A CLOSED THREAD UNDER A DIFFERENT NAME" [img]wink.gif[/img]

Wow. There you have it! Gary Husband is the best!! [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]

Gary Husband, wow I love your work with Holdsworth!

That being said, I'm not sure you're reading the posts.

SDK specifically said open tuning, drum sizes vary. So that 18" bass drum comment is coming from you not him. I just re-read it. Tony played an open tuned bass until the day he left us.

Jazz drumming is about breaking the rules once you've mastered them. If jazz was about breaking the commandments only, then everyone who never played jazz before could sit down and break all the commandments as you said, and by your standards, is playing jazz. I couldn't disagree more.
Every style of music has guidelines. I think if I sat here and said, hey man, Lewis Nash can cover Holdworth's gig anyday, I'd be insulting your greatness and the work you've put into becoming one of the worlds top rock/fusion drummers.
I believe the tradition of jazz needs to be respected. And as I have posted before, even the most creative jazz players of today, have complete understand of the old school mentality. Tony Williams came right out of Philly Jo, Art, and Max. You could always hear that about him, yet he took it somewhere else. Same with Elvin, and then later, Jack. Then Paul Motian. But you can't be a jazz drummer if you're not taking it to the next level from somewhere, a foundational point. Jazz is an art. If Picasso couldn't paint an amazing still life(he thought he couldn't) he wouldn't have had the foundation to move on. If Mozart couldn't compose a simple counterpoint, then we would not have his famous operas.
That's all I'm saying. And by the creators of the music, and today's best jazz musicians, I stand correct. If you notice, even in Miles later funk/fusion bands. every one of those musicians could play swingjazz, and everyone of those musicians were rooted in be-bop. Miles wouldn't hire musicians who didn't come from the same musical place he did, although he was a fan of many like Prince, Sly and so on.
And no one insulted Vinnie here. If Vinnie isn't an African drummer is that an insult? He's one of the greatest drummers in history. But what does that have to do with jazz?

If you wanna complain about other people's lack of foundation in something, maybe YOU ought to get a better foundation in the correct spelling of "disappointed".

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 03:11 PM: Message edited by: the grove ]</font>

There! See how ridiculous and petty those kinds of arguments get?

G.H I love your playing!

Your comment about Tony's kick being damened? Are you sure?
I went as far as to put a call into Ron Carter who I took a jazz studies class with at The New School in NYC a couple of years ago. I left him a message. But I cleary remember him saying Tony played an open tuning in VSOP. And the the albums I have of VSOP support that sound wise. Are you sure it was dampened? tony's B.D always had open tone, even when I saw him at Catalina's right before he died.
In any case, I hear you Gary. I do think Rob is right about jazz coming from somewhere. You can't just freely improvise and call it jazz. And never did anyone say the music cant' progress. It just can't leave it's foundation behind. Coltrane played be-bop licks until the day he dies. He masked the very well, but if you transcribe A Love Supreme, you'd see that. Micheal Brecker can break out Charlie Parker, Dexter Gordon, or even Dizzy in a heartbeat. He's rooted. He comes from there and of course Train. But he sounds like Michael Brecker. you can stil tell he's rooted. Of course you can break the rules. know them first. Your post consist of misquoting members. No one said you can't break the rules. What was said, is learn them.

Grove,
that's pretty funny!! So is the fact that you coudn't have a more appropriate icon. :-)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Flarobstix:
Tony played an open tuned bass until the day he left us.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wrong. I saw hime live with his yellow Gretsch and he had a rolled up carpet in his 24" bass drum (touching both heads). There were even Gretsch ads where you could see the dampening in the drum.

There was no hole in the resonant head, but there definitely was dampening in there.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 05, 2005 05:28 PM: Message edited by: drumming sort of person ]</font>

Dear Gary, Para, and Drumming sort,

An open tuning means the bass drum rings to various degrees and has tone. Meaning, it's not dead. I'm pretty sure that was what was meant. As most people use various degrees of felt, or a small something to help control the tone. He still played an open tuning. VSOP live, the bass drum has an opne tone to it and it sounds huge. Simon Phillips uses towels, but it's still an open tuning. That's what I meant, not sure about SDK, but it's silly to think that even the bebop drummers didn't use felt strips to control the sound. In jazz, feathering the bass drum is something jazz drummers do. Tony ALWAYS played both feet in quarter time when playing jazz time. He always feathered. I sat behind him several times. I was there when he got kicked out of the Village Vanguard for playing too loud.
This doesn't work when guys bury the beater into the head, and it doesn't work on a big fat DEAD sounding bass drum, played by the contemporary fusion and rock drummers. Tony's kick drum was never dead never flat, even with a carpet in there to control the sound.