Dissapointed

Mr. Husband,

Not only are you a bad mutha @^&*....But you're the real thing. I can't argue your point. You have respected my points unlike anyone else on this board. And your response has made sense to me. I guess we'll always have our own interpertation of what jazz is, and alwayd respect the players like blade, hutch, hass, tain, and others, more than I'll than I'll respect others due to my ability to hear where they're coming from, rather than some random chops being blown over a jazz form. I want to hear the language. And a few versatile players can provide me with that. But, others enjoy the jazz playing of fusion drummers, so be it. I know that I love your playing with Alan, and with Level 42.
And I love Vince with Zappa,Alan, Sting, and everyone else he plays with. But I will never call him or any other amazing creative musician who isn't rooted in in jazz, a jazz musician. I suppose that's my perogative as it as it is yours. And yes Steve Smith knows about the tradition and is aware. But along with you and others on this board, I'd much rather hear VC play jazz than him. Vinnie is a monster and a creative force on the drums that we'll probably never see again in our life times. But there are other drummers around who can cop his approach and who are deeply rooted in many styles. Vinnie Colaiuta is one of the best drummers of our time. I've stated that many times. As is Gary Husband.
Thanks your expertise and participation in this.
Rob,,,

Well put Louis!

Robert,

I'm very flattered indeed you see me as a notable contributor in the world of fusion, or pop with Level 42, and am very thankful for the complements. Only, to aid this particular thread ... I can't help wishing you had heard some of my work on my own releases, ("Aspire" being probably the best one ... trio music with a lot of swingjazz elements) or my work as a sideman with Julian Siegal Quartet ("Close-Up"), "The Call" - Alan Skidmore Quartet or any of the four albums I did in recent years with one of the UKs great bop guitar players, Jim Mullen, too. I made a video many years ago which features a very improvisational three-piece featuring a lot of swingjazz too. It's an area I've worked through an awful lot.

And why not? I did a lot of developing in many traditional forms of jazz like many, many others. My roots are in jazz.

I guess what bothers me in this whole point is somehow I get the impression that drummers who stretch themselves over quite a few styles - who draw from and involve themselves in a lot of different other areas aren't really somehow ever going to be the real thing. Do I read this right, or am I being paranoid!!?? What about a guy like Gary Novak - one of my personal favourites - who's voice, capacity and capability naturally spreads across various areas of fusion, pop and jazz. He's one of the most amazingly intense and soulful swingjazz or hardbop exponents I ever heard! What a beat!!
What about Peter Erskine? Another "wide" musician.
I'd be curious to know how you'd categorise John McLaughlin, (who I happen to be working with at the moment myself)? His growth stems from a deep love of Jimmy Raney and Tal Farlow, Coltrane and Miles but rather famously went on to incorporate Flamenco, Indian, Blues and R&B influences into what he did. His work on an early UK release (along with Kenny Wheeler) "Hair At It's Hairiest" to me qualifies the emergence of one of the most modern, dynamic, cutting-edge and innovative evolvements of jazz guitar. He is rooted in jazz ... but he travelled, musically, and brought into to the realm elements of a lot of other stuff inside what he did, and does!

For me Vinnie is such a musician. Open. Taking in constantly from all areas of jazz, rock and whatever. An eternal learner - like the rest of us. He pushes the boundaries, improvisationally, creatively. Why are his forays and contributions in a swingjazz realm any less valid up against Tain or Bill Stewart? Because his development doesn't lie in that realm exclusively?

I would personally hate to be remembered only from my efforts with Allan Holdsworth and Level 42!! I really would like you to hear "Aspire - Gary Husband & Friends". I specifically formed that to explore and expand, (in my own way) conceptually and harmonically on the piano trio jazz format. What's more, I'm doing it from piano primarily, and also playing drums. This has all been developed from the ground up, from my jazz roots, years of study and experimentation, dedication and quest in this music.

I like to feel it to be doing my bit to expand on "the language" a little bit, in my own way, as I hear it. A language I have immersed myself in since I was a kid. No I don't get to exhibit much of that language with Level 42, but a lot of that is to do with making a living, and, quite honestly, being fairly broad musically, by desire and nature and choice. Would this principal, say I was playing around the corner from you in a jazz quartet, be enough to persuade you not to come and hear me for instance? Because my line of development has not been exclusive to only the swingjazz realm? Because if that's the case, it's pretty disappointing. And this is what I find troubling about what you say Rob, personally.

Did Miles Davis not once say, "the best bands are mixed bands"?? Man, there's a lot in that!!

Just another two cents worth,

GH

Great post Gary.

Quote:

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Originally posted by the grove:
I think it's whatever Kenny G plays.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Quote:

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Originally posted by shedder:
can you explain the language for me? some specific things they play that make them jazz drummers to you.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thank you for asking this; I was going to ask the same thing.

I'm currently working towards a degree in Jazz and I have yet to encounter any specific rules or "words" in this language from any study or any professor.

My approach is this:

1. Learn the form (melody and chord changes)
1.5 Try to find a recording.
2. Play good time for the band
3. Listen to the band
4. Respond to the band
5. In soloing try to refrence the melody line and harmonic structure.

Now how I choose to do #4 and #5 is rooted in all my influences; some traditional players some modern. Not all drummers btw.

AH!!! I get it! The language I choose to speak is what has influenced me and me alone. Would this not be the same for any musician anywhere in any style?

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ May 06, 2005 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 06, 2005 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]</font>

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Originally posted by JoesMechanic:
CL warunki and Henry II..... no (politics) Bush wanking in here [img]wink.gif[/img] . . .

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I beg your pardon, Sir. Politics had nothing to do with my allusion to offense at being compared to Bush. It's that moronic, phoney Texas accent I was referring to. [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 06, 2005 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]</font>

Quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Husband:
I do have to wonder, what are "the rules of jazz" one can master before we can then go ahead and break them? Perhaps you can explain them and define them for me Flarobsticks. I'm not aware of them, either as an improvising keyboard player or as a drummer.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'll try to answer that. Many times I have heard jazz referred to as "American classical music." Also, as a former music student, I learned that, in the opinion of some, jazz has 3 essential elements: swing, improvisation, and the blues, or a variation of it. By changing one or more of these elements you create a fusion of jazz and some other style.

I agree with both of those definitions. Jazz IS American classical music. To say that jazz has no boundaries at all is not really fair or accurate. Certainly, the universe of possible variations within the above definition is virtually limitless. But jazz is not defined as any music that is creative or new. There are established conventions of jazz, and I think those 3 elements are among them, if not all of them.

As for Vinnie Colaiuta, I think it's silly to say he's not a great jazz drummer. Obviously, he is a rare genius on the drums, like Buddy Rich, or like Horowitz was a genius on the piano. Just because the jazz drumming vocabulary he chooses to play isn't identical to the legendary jazz and bop drummers (stick shots, buzz flams, bass foot substitutions, etrc.), doesn't mean that his drumming vocabulary isn't jazz. Nor does it mean that he couldn't play in Philly Joe's, Max's, Elvin's, or Art's style and vocabulary as well or better than they could do it. He probably can.

Having said all that, like I said in the previously locked thread, from what little I've heard of it, Vinnie's feel for swing does not feel that good to me. IMHO, Duffy Jackson is the hardest swinging, most energetic drummer/musician on the planet. But, that's just my opinion. I am not in the same league as either of those musicians, and I wouldn't be surprised if Vinnie knows exactly what I mean, and is quite capable of replicating the way Duffy plays, yet chooses not to because the way he plays feels better to him.

Quote:

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Originally posted by the grove:
I think it's whatever Kenny G plays.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh heh heh...

while i think ol' kGee can def tickle some ears in the pop world [it's not like he can't play something period, but herein lies the eternal jazz debate! & rightly so! ;cp], I generally agree with the humor here. Poor bloke! Music-wise, he's like the present Runaway Bride, or Camilla Parker Bowles [bless her heart, can the late-night US TV joke-writers & comedians just leave the poor woman alone to live here life?] over in the States! Man, these poor folks get hazed. Maybe it's time to just leave 'em alone already...well, to quote a famous pop tune by one Mr. Meat of Loaf, 2 outta G ain't bad... [img]wink.gif[/img]

Now, this thread is becoming more of what the other really should've been!

"Hairiest of the Hairy" - LOL, great name...& much like this & that other topic...;cp

Mntmn - I dig - got yer yellow snow reference! Good one...;c)

Really, I completely understand where flar & the other 2 are coming from, really. And they make some valid points [when not "shouting," "HA!" [img]wink.gif[/img] ]But I am also from the Miles, Chick, Husband, Holdsworth, Martino, Metheny, McLaughlin, Holmes awa DiOrio [hard-core bop at its finest] etc school of thought on the matter. I understand those cats [besides perhaps Joe D] would fall into the "fusion-jazz" category for some jazz officianados, but really, it doesn't matter to me as long as their playing slams me in the gut, as Stv H & Gary H said so well.

I realize that, sans the tone of some of the postings, the orig intent was really to 'educate' a few who may not understand certain historical period genre sub-divisions within the jazz idiom that were instrumental in the foundation & formation of "jazz" the art form as we know it today [which can be somewhat broad one anymore], AKA the ROOTS, & i think most if not all of these great "fusion" cats have already long know this AW! I get what flar sdk, & para are saying NO doubt.

But jazz also changed over those many formative yrs; dixieland, BB, BD on fours, BD "dropping bombs," the drummers' more-involved LH/BD/HH comping beyond what was already done b4, on & on; & there are MANY diff improvements along the way, & perhaps a few not. [img]wink.gif[/img] Which brought us up to the present.

& i also agree that there may be guys who authentically play the swing & jazz idiom in a much more "authentic" or "real" way to some folks than say VC or Weck, & this & that, But really, i don't see the point in all that, other than to note it in an incremental-historical, on your way, educational, big-picture sort of way; or perhaps to document & understand differences in players' approaches along the way. Jazz the art form has its DEF bases & foundation to be understood & "heard,", yet there are guys out there who are constantly pushing & stretching the limits, taking the foundations of what they've heard from the other greats ["hardcore trad or bop" & "fusion" alike - meh, categories] - no harm done to me, it's actually TO BE EXPECTED, as it's an ever-evolving art form.

But fear not, the roots will never be "lost" - whatever "orig jazz idiom or sub-genre" definition you have for it will not die as long as there are folks who are willing to DISCUSS, TEACH, INFORM, MOTIVATE, & KEEP IT ALIVE it in a sensible & educatory AWA playing fashion, such as has been occuring here now. [img]cool.gif[/img] & as long as there's guys like SSmith etc [AWA the Jazz Nazi Party to set the rest of 'em straight! - I jest again] [img]wink.gif[/img] ...

...But this is another reason why historical AWA understanding the notes/rhythms-theoretical MUSIC EDUCATION for the nations IS SO IMPORTANT. The old saying - when you notice the arts starting to die [or be corrupted] around the globe, then note that your precious "civil-ization" is coming to a hazardous place! [paraphrased] Pop music in & of itself is never a bad thing, but when we focus on the $, image, trends, fashion, or whatever too much, instead of educating our up n coming youth in general on the foundations of music, so that they think that much of this "popular" music is in fact "gospel," we are really doing OURSELVES an extreme disservice, & spitting in the face of the many who sacrificed much to bring the joy of real music to the world over the ages. But I DO likes me some of that good pop music nevertheless, just making the point...

But then, by that frame of ref, I guess one could qualify almost everything now as "fusion;" the natural evolutionary process of everything, which includes music. I just choose to embrace it, not fight it, at the same time NEVER forgetting or not-understanding the ROOTS, STAGES, & differences in sub-styles & genres of just plain great music. We will always have diff players who are unique 7 keeping it alive & "real" in their own formidable way, such as the more "trad sounding guys" AWA our esteemed Mssrs. Husband, Colaiuta, Weckl...& all wonderful points in between; the gamut that makes for the rainbow of the greatness of the collective spirit of music [sorry if that sounds too syrupy gauche & maudlin! };cp]

Guys like VC, DW, GH, Novak [1 of my faves AW!], awa Tain, Will K, BStew, JBaron, Ari, the others mentioned etc, play the RH swing, & also break it up, set up hits/kicks & figures, & comp pno figures w LH, bass [elec or upright] w the kick, & break/mix it up too, awa w their own inflections. They ARE he Next Gen of Jazz & Fusion. They understand what the H is going on. They just might not have that swing feel that some of us are very fond of...I think this is where it "really gets going.";c)

Aby way, bottom line for ME is, if it is GOOD & it hits my gut or emotion or mind, I'll be digging it.

Some awesome commentary in this thread - I bet you're not disappointed NOW, Gsmitty... ;c)

To quote anudda HODhb brudda [CB] - LUB, PEACE, [JAZZ - all forms except smooth [img]tongue.gif[/img] !], & CHICKEN GREASE.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ May 06, 2005 03:52 PM: Message edited by: got_a_matchgrip? ]</font>

It's obvious and understandable that some people have a lot of respect for traditions and the way things used to be done. Honoring traditions and respecting the tradition of jazz by playing in a certain way is apparently a touchy thing for some.

The hard part for myself and maybe others as well, is not to hold traditions on such a pedestal that we lose sight of the big picture. I'm no expert on the big picture of the jazz tradition. This analogy may offend the jazz fundamentalists, but here I go. I grew up in the early 90's, when grunge rock was popular. That musical style and the groups that came from that era hold a special place in my mind. When I hear those songs & players, it takes me back to a time & place that is special to me. But when I hear new music on the radio, like Creed or Mudvayne, I turn the radio off. It really almost offends me to listen to some of the crap on the radio. Why? To me, it sounds like the new music is a bastardized version of what came from the 90's grunge era.

This is how I can somewhat relate to the feelings expressed on this post about the traditions of jazz and how to repsect it and make it grow. However the connection stops there because I then realize how wrong it is to transfer feelings & emotion I have about music (jazz or grunge or whatever) that I like and identify with, onto music that I feel is a 'bastardized' version of it.

Traditional jazz may have rules & regulations to some extent, such as swing,improvisation or blues variations, but it's important to realize or to ask the question, " Is tradition the rule?"

If someone plays jazz and you can't hear the 'tradition' in their playing, does that diminish the music somehow? I don't think so. That's just silly. If some people find it offensive that the tradition of jazz can't be heard in Vinnie's playing, that's fine but check the ego at the door if you think people will insult the tradition of jazz if they don't play like drummers did FIFTY years ago. That's like some native from Africa saying all drumset players insult the drum becasue they haven't learned his tribal rhythms.

Jazz fundamentalism is wrong.